Why do USB cables make such a difference?
Status
Not open for further replies.
Oct 18, 2017 at 6:55 AM Post #421 of 1,606
1. Absolutely! The other problem is that in today's world, where digital audio technology was effectively perfected beyond the limits of audibility quite a few years ago, boutique audiophile manufacturers have no where to go, no upgrade path which brings us closer to audible perfection because that's not only already been achieved but is now achieved routinely at a tiny cost. At bulk trade prices, an audibly perfect DAC chip costs about $1.50! Pretty much the only direction audiophile manufacturers can go, if they are to stay in business and charge more than a very modest amount for their digital audio products, is to lie, to misrepresent or dispute the facts, science and engineering. The result is an audiophile product which, in it's attempt to differentiate itself from cheap products, does something differently and ends up either not achieving the basic standards of engineering that cheap products achieve or, actually improves upon the basic standards but those improvements are inaudible.

2. Yep, the problem so often in the audiophile world is one of relative scale. What does say -200dB really mean and how does it relate to the real world? In the digital realm we can have and calculate any arbitrary low level down to minus infinity dB but back in the real world, where we have to convert those numeric values into an analogous electrical current and then an acoustic sound wave, those digital numbers/values are completely un-convertable even in theory! Sure, we use 64bit processing for mixing audio but there's two good reasons for that: 1. Pretty much all CPU chip manufacture today is based on a 64bit architecture, so it's cheaper to employ 64bit for the significant processing required when mixing than some lower bit depth which would still be sufficient. 2. Again scale! A consumer DAC has 2 channels of digital audio, relatively modest processing requirements for those two channels and therefore digital noise artefacts which should be well below audibility (assuming basic competent design), even at relatively low bit depths. 64bit processing maintains digital noise artefacts well below audibility in any commercial mixing eventuality and any commercial mixing eventuality includes some feature film workflows which can employ up to 1,200 or so digital audio channels/paths, plus numerous processors on many of them. Distortion/Noise artefacts down at silly numbers (-200dB and beyond) are therefore valid in commercial mixing as we could be compounding those artefacts many thousands of times but of course, this is an entirely different scale to stereo consumer playback!!

1. IMHO, a "more adult response might be to" learn some basic facts and apply some simple logic rather than swallowing hook, line and sinker whatever nonsense an audiophile product designer come up with to get you to buy that product.

2. Unweighted, that DR figure equates to or is poorer than the 124dB I mentioned above. This means, as 0dB is the highest possible value in digital audio, that the Dave is potentially capable of resolving down to somewhere around -124dB. But, that -124dB limit of the Dave is roughly 6,300 times higher than the -200dB noise/distortion Rob Watts claims to be hearing. So, in order for him to even potentially be hearing what he claims, he must obviously be using some other DAC with a massively better dynamic range than the Dave! Oh dear, to admit that is not great from a Chord marketing perspective is it? Not to worry though, there is no DAC which is 6,300 times better than the Dave, there's probably none even 2 times better and that's why what he claims to be hearing is utter nonsense. Note that we arrived at this obvious conclusion with just a basic fact or two (the DR spec of Dave plus an understanding of what it means) along with some simple logic. Nothing which is beyond even an average school child, let alone an adult!

3. The more "adult response" might have been to try and understand why you found some of the comments offensive and why they were posted. At the very least, an "adult response" IMHO, would have been to ignore those particular comments/posters but still open your mind to some of the others and some actual facts, rather than steadfastly remaining close minded to anything other than marketing BS and a demonstrably false belief in the accuracy of your perception. However, you're obviously unable to open your mind and/or unwilling to face the uncomfortable truths that those actual facts represent, which incidentally is another classic example of what I mentioned previously; accusing others of what audiophile themselves are most guilty of. So while you unsubscribing from this thread is not IMO an "adult response", it is somewhat understandable, if somewhat lamentable.

G

G, We are unlikely to reach common ground on many items as I think we both have an element of closed minds relating to it. You might not believe it but I do have an effective BS filter and all of my cables are standard no phool copper from a reel cut and made by me. Likewise there is not a single non stock power cable anywhere in my system. However, on a different thread on Head-Fi, Rob Watts has been explaining what he is doing. I readily admit I do not have the knowledge to follow it. You may well say that many existing chips can do the same or better and you can either splutter with laughter or whatever if you read these two posts, but his devices do sound different (to me, not in level matched tests, just through typically 9 hours per day of listening, so I accept the fallibility of that statement from your perspective).

www.head-fi.org/threads/watts-up.800264/page-24#post-13787487

www.head-fi.org/threads/watts-up.800264/page-24#post-13787531
 
Oct 18, 2017 at 7:26 AM Post #422 of 1,606
About the only thing I feel like adding ...

Spending some $ on hearing live music is an ear-opener. Odds are the event is amplified, mics, cables galore, and nobody is fretting about the purity of the copper in the wires.

There is at least one key difference. It really is a large room, and a related second... we can turn our heads up, down, left, right. HPs don't recreate this. Speakers in small rooms in homes, not entirely either. There are some other psychological differences as well, like crowd energy, and that we enjoy the music and don't obsessive over the noise floor of the amps, mixers, etc. at a live event, but anyway...

Personally I'll just bank some of my $ for live music and am content with my good old cheap USB cables.
 
Oct 18, 2017 at 8:01 AM Post #423 of 1,606
... I do have an effective BS filter ... Rob Watts has been explaining what he is doing. I readily admit I do not have the knowledge to follow it....

The effectiveness of your BS filter is determined by your level of knowledge of the subject being BSed.
Again taking the Rob Watts "200 dB" example:
(a) He's talking about something else entirely and was misquoted
(b) He's exaggerating for effect and hasn't stopped to think how dumb it sounds
(c) He's deliberately BSing.
Personally, if I don't know enough about a subject to determine which is the most likely answer, I just say "Uh huh" to myself and wait for someone to explain it in small enough words that I can understand it.
You've had a couple of good explanations of why hearing noise at 200 dB below the signal is nonsensical. I've just read through the referenced presentation and I agree, the best that can be said about it is that it is misleading.
 
Oct 18, 2017 at 11:09 AM Post #426 of 1,606
[1] You might not believe it but I do have an effective BS filter ...
[1a] ... Rob Watts has been explaining what he is doing. I readily admit I do not have the knowledge to follow it.
[2] www.head-fi.org/threads/watts-up.800264/page-24#post-13787487
[3] www.head-fi.org/threads/watts-up.800264/page-24#post-13787531

1. Of course we'd all like to believe that, none of us want to believe we can be easily duped/scammed. The problem is that music recording/reproduction covers a number of fields all of which can be pretty complex when we dig a bit deeper. This provides almost endless marketing BS opportunities which no one who hasn't dug deeply would be able to filter. In which case all you can do is try and judge if the person (in this case Rob Watts) is a nice man who is not deliberately trying to dupe you. Alternatively, you could actually dig a bit deeper and base your filter on some actual facts, rather than just intuition. And that's largely why this sub-forum exists.
1a. Case in point, without that knowledge your BS filter is a wide open door. Instead of facts, all you have is intuition and assumption, both of which are prime marketing targets and have been pretty much since modern marketing was invented over a century ago.

2. As I said, I can go through that post point by point, provide some real facts/context and demonstrate why most of them are complete BS but I've already done that with the main point so I'll move on to the next one, unless you've got a specific point or two you'd like me/us to pick up on?

3. The points in the first pane "Measurements" are actually all pretty accurate, shame his subsequent panes go on to ignore/pervert some these initial points! The second pane - "Some Examples - Noise floor modulation" - is nonsense. It breaks the penultimate point in his Measurements pane, a distortion product at -150dB could not possibly correlate with any reliable listening test because a signal at -150dB is about 20 times lower than the lowest signal his DAC is even capable of outputting in the first place (according to the dynamic range specs you posted) and incidentally, at least 31,000 times below the noise floor any commercial recording! The "Dave Noise-Shaper Performance" is equally nonsense, actually that's not true, in an absolute sense it's even more nonsensical because that -301dB is about 700 million times below what his DAC can actually output and even noise-shapers many millions of times higher in level can "perfectly reproduce the amplitude" of even the very smallest reproducible signal. I've no issue with the "Jitter Test" pane, except to mention that even cheap DACs reduce jitter artefacts to well below the limit of Dave's ability to reproduce. And the same is true of the next pane. The next pane, "16-bit -90.3dB", I'm not quite sure what this is trying to prove, what the actual test is or how this result would stack up against a much cheaper DAC. The last pane - no, I've got no questions, I think I can work out for myself why he's quoting signal levels which cannot even be output by his DAC, let alone be audible.

G
 
Oct 18, 2017 at 11:14 AM Post #427 of 1,606
G, We are unlikely to reach common ground on many items as I think we both have an element of closed minds relating to it. You might not believe it but I do have an effective BS filter and all of my cables are standard no phool copper from a reel cut and made by me. Likewise there is not a single non stock power cable anywhere in my system. However, on a different thread on Head-Fi, Rob Watts has been explaining what he is doing. I readily admit I do not have the knowledge to follow it. You may well say that many existing chips can do the same or better and you can either splutter with laughter or whatever if you read these two posts, but his devices do sound different (to me, not in level matched tests, just through typically 9 hours per day of listening, so I accept the fallibility of that statement from your perspective).

www.head-fi.org/threads/watts-up.800264/page-24#post-13787487

www.head-fi.org/threads/watts-up.800264/page-24#post-13787531
The problem is that when someone makes several statements that are not true, or not backed by anything but their own "theory", it erodes their authority and credibility. This guy Watts is a treasure-trove of that sort of thing.

But when you say things like, "I readily admit I do not have the knowledge to follow it." ...and..."but his devices do sound different (to me, not in level matched tests.....)" it makes some of us wonder you'd bother trying to support Watts and put yourself in the same line of fire.
 
Oct 18, 2017 at 11:24 AM Post #428 of 1,606
1. Of course we'd all like to believe that, none of us want to believe we can be easily duped/scammed. The problem is that music recording/reproduction covers a number of fields all of which can be pretty complex when we dig a bit deeper. This provides almost endless marketing BS opportunities which no one who hasn't dug deeply would be able to filter. In which case all you can do is try and judge if the person (in this case Rob Watts) is a nice man who is not deliberately trying to dupe you. Alternatively, you could actually dig a bit deeper and base your filter on some actual facts, rather than just intuition. And that's largely why this sub-forum exists.
1a. Case in point, without that knowledge your BS filter is a wide open door. Instead of facts, all you have is intuition and assumption, both of which are prime marketing targets and have been pretty much since modern marketing was invented over a century ago.

2. As I said, I can go through that post point by point, provide some real facts/context and demonstrate why most of them are complete BS but I've already done that with the main point so I'll move on to the next one, unless you've got a specific point or two you'd like me/us to pick up on?

3. The points in the first pane "Measurements" are actually all pretty accurate, shame his subsequent panes go on to ignore/pervert some these initial points! The second pane - "Some Examples - Noise floor modulation" - is nonsense. It breaks the penultimate point in his Measurements pane, a distortion product at -150dB could not possibly correlate with any reliable listening test because a signal at -150dB is about 20 times lower than the lowest signal his DAC is even capable of outputting in the first place (according to the dynamic range specs you posted) and incidentally, at least 31,000 times below the noise floor any commercial recording! The "Dave Noise-Shaper Performance" is equally nonsense, actually that's not true, in an absolute sense it's even more nonsensical because that -301dB is about 700 million times below what his DAC can actually output and even noise-shapers many millions of times higher in level can "perfectly reproduce the amplitude" of even the very smallest reproducible signal. I've no issue with the "Jitter Test" pane, except to mention that even cheap DACs reduce jitter artefacts to well below the limit of Dave's ability to reproduce. And the same is true of the next pane. The next pane, "16-bit -90.3dB", I'm not quite sure what this is trying to prove, what the actual test is or how this result would stack up against a much cheaper DAC. The last pane - no, I've got no questions, I think I can work out for myself why he's quoting signal levels which cannot even be output by his DAC, let alone be audible.

G

Thanks for taking the trouble and time to reply.
 
Last edited:
Oct 18, 2017 at 2:22 PM Post #430 of 1,606
My BS filter is only an indicator. I adjust the BS filter all the time.

Try this:

bs_meter.gif


G
 
Oct 18, 2017 at 2:56 PM Post #431 of 1,606
I have had a lucky escape. No one warned me about Sound Science when I joined Head-Fi. But I have amassed some points collected elsewhere and have used them in exchange for the code for the secret door out of Sound Sciece.

I am blinking slightly in the daylight as I adjust to being back in the real world.

Take care and never forget that although you think you know what you are talking about it might just turn out that you don’t.

See ya guys.
 
Oct 18, 2017 at 3:03 PM Post #432 of 1,606
I have had a lucky escape. No one warned me about Sound Science when I joined Head-Fi. But I have amassed some points collected elsewhere and have used them in exchange for the code for the secret door out of Sound Sciece.

I am blinking slightly in the daylight as I adjust to being back in the real world.

Take care and never forget that although you think you know what you are talking about it might just turn out that you don’t.

See ya guys.
Well, maybe he's really gone and won't see this. But anyway, a real "sound scientist" takes the audiophile "observations" seriously, tries to learn about them, and explain where they come from. We often find out that we don't fully know what we thought we knew, but it's all about learning. What we don't do is accept a belief without proof that it even exists.

And thanks, but I think the light of truth is brighter.
 
Oct 18, 2017 at 3:25 PM Post #433 of 1,606
Return to Plato's cave, Triode!

It was nice to have a little philosophy for a brief while.
 
Oct 18, 2017 at 5:44 PM Post #434 of 1,606
Well, maybe he's really gone and won't see this. But anyway, a real "sound scientist" takes the audiophile "observations" seriously, tries to learn about them, and explain where they come from. We often find out that we don't fully know what we thought we knew, but it's all about learning. What we don't do is accept a belief without proof that it even exists.

And thanks, but I think the light of truth is brighter.
Here's the thing too everyone in these debates for cables and such wants to win. Regardless of the outcome of the debate. He thinks he won.

But most important thing is the one who debates to learn and to share information.

I honestly like this thread as I learned a lot from people here. Including those who support robb watts. Honestly rarely read stuff like this on regular headfi.

"Just bro you gotta listen to the dac with the effect audio thor II in balanced to hear the difference dude!!".

I applaud you all and you too @gregorio for taking the time to put out posts with lots of information to gain.

I honestly did not come into this thread to win battles against audiophiles or the like. Just to learn from each side.
 
Oct 18, 2017 at 10:36 PM Post #435 of 1,606
@gregorio found another post one of Mr.Watts post. But this time he posted that he set an "Non-Audiophile" Audio Engineer. Keep in mind folks he specifically worded Non-Audiophile engineer. Into a single blind testing for RF Interference affecting the sound.

For those of you interested check this out!
Screenshot_341.png

Screenshot_340.png


I would also be very very eager to see if Mr.Watts can do a DBT on a properly ripped 320 K (freaking overkill) QAAC encoded AAC. No cherrypicking FAAC encodes. To a 16 bit FLAC file.
Pass the test consistently in Foobar with ABX plugin, and upload these beautiful log files. He can use his BluDave if he wants to too! Feel free to hook that baby up! I'm eager to see his log files as well!
See if his bold claim is up to par.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top