[upstateguy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by westies /img/forum/go_quote.gif As for the OPs concerns about EAC and Foobar, luckily you can run both in Wine. However, if you're looking for Linux native apps, Rubyripper is probably your best choice for ripping and Amarok/Banshee/Rythmbox are worth checking out for playback.

how much speed do you loose running foobar in wine and will KS setting function?

thanks

USG

 

[PYROphonez]

I truly prefer Linux, and I've used, installed, and dualbooted it many times, though I really like playing an occasional game, such as those on Steam. If valve/steam games ever work natively on Linux, I'd jump over for good.

 

[westies]

Quote:

Originally Posted by upstateguy /img/forum/go_quote.gif how much speed do you loose running foobar in wine and will KS setting function? thanks USG

Honestly, I can't answer those questions. I haven't attempted to get my Foobar config working in Linux yet as there are still no proper Linux drivers for my X-Fi sound card. As such, I only boot into Linux occasionally to play around with. I'm sure someone around here has the answer to your question though

 

[MoSXS]

I have a MacBook. I'm not using it at the moment.

For the first few months I was typical "once you go Mac you don't go back!".

But now that I've spent most of this year using a Mac... I can honestly say I do NOT see what the hype is all about.

Problem free? Hardly. My optical drive died. I sent the system in for repair. It came back in worse shape than it went out in. It was scratched to all hell, my mouse button no longer worked, and the laser in the optical drive had been "re-aligned". That itself made it next to impossible for it to read any kind of disc and forget about burning DVDs or CDs. I had to send it back to Apple a couple more times. The second time it went back to them, they replaced the casing. But what did they do? They scratched it up again!

Apple finally replaced the system with the price equivalent of what I had originally purchased.

You can also ask every single person who originally installed the Safari 3 beta if OS X is "rock solid". It wasn't fun having to reinstall OS X and all of my software a few hours after installing Safari 3.

OS X has the benefit of having easier to install software. But it lacks a lot of 3rd party software. Some having no equivalent, like Nero or WinDVD. I'm sorry, but DVD Player in OS X (especially Tiger, but Leopard still isn't very good) is a complete joke. DVD playback in OS X is worse than one of those $29 upscaling DVD players from Wal-Mart.

What really got me was when I realized I had spent $1408 (after taxes) on a computer with NO dedicated GPU. The X3100 is still a joke. It can choke out a solid 30fps in UT2k4 at 800x600 with everything set to medium, where the GMA 950 in my MacBook struggles to maintain it.

Everyone talks about iLife with Macs. But aside from iPhoto, the other apps generally go unused.

Now my "second" system is an HP with a C2D 2GHz, 2GB of RAM, 160GB HDD, TV tuner, dedicated GeForce, etc. and it all cost about $500 less than the MacBook did.

The MacBook will be the only Mac I ever purchase, unless Apple gets their prices realistic.. and gets off their anti-consumer business practices as of late (forcing users to repurchase iPod games, deliberately blocking ringtones up until recently, etc.)

As for Linux..... this is 2007. Command line is a thing of the past. End of story there.

I use Windows XP because it lets me do what I want to with no command line, and I don't have to worry about a lack of 3rd party software or the software being junk (like Toast or DVD Player). I can get a Windows machine with good hardware for a reasonable price. Not $1999 for an absolutely pathetic 128MB of video memory like the MacBook Pro.

 

[balou]

Quote:

As for Linux..... this is 2007. Command line is a thing of the past. End of story there.

a statement from somebody who has apparently never used a unix shell...
Working with a shell is a lot faster than clicking around in a GUI. (starting a programm? just type it's name. moving files selectively around [e.g. move all jpeg files in a separate directory]? mv *.jpg somedir. Editing a file? <yourfavoriteeditor> filename.txt. Without even lifting your hands from the keyboard you can start typing right away).

I'm btw using MacOS X on my macbook pro at the moment. I'm a linux user since about 7 years ago, and I do like the command line, so my screen when using osx looks pretty much like when under linux (a couple of shells and firefox). I'm going to also install linux on it, but at the moment I have very little time.. and macosx is almost as comfortable as linux, so it'll do for some more time

(and yeah, adobe lightroom doesn't run on linux, so thats something where osx definitely has advantages. But as already said above, OS choice also has a lot to do with what you already know)

things I miss most in osx are middle-mouse-button-paste, multiple desktops and tabbed shells (yeah, haven't yet updated to 10.5, have to wait until the heavily discounted student version from our university comes out)

 

[MikoLayer]

I strongly disagree with the notion that linux is more trouble free. Sure ubuntu has bridged the gap somewhat, but linux is most defintely more work intensive to manage for one reason or another (hardware support, program compatibility for one).

I am flat out astounded how individuals with so much intellectual abilities and motivation to do busywork to plunge into linux couldnt get their windows running without crashing. I mean, what the hell are these really doing on their computers? Both of my computers have been running windows xp (recently migrated to vista32/64) and I cannot recall any particular instead of major malfunction that I would attribute to the OS itself.

I am no expert, I only have limited experience in programming - just more of a relatively computer savvy end user type. When things do go wrong with windows (mainly due to 3rd party programs or drivers and usually minor at that) things are usually easy to handle with a fair amount of googling. With linux, it is a ****load of tinkering around, experimenting, asking around and waiting.

Though I will sound like I am repeating myself, I will ask this question. What is so inherently bad about windows anyway? So the philosophy in design could be different, a few differences in UI here and there. The way I see it is, what little technological advantage for an average linux supposedely might have is completely obliterated by today's hardware; other than gaming, when was the last time that you felt your computer was severly lacking in processing power? More apparant is lack of proper hardware/application support on the linux side (again, the OS delvelopers shouldnt be blamed but thats just the way things are now as far as the users are concerned).

A similar analogy would be a foobar elitist looking down upon lowly winamp users. Technically, foobar has its upsides in more efficient use of resources, customizable UIs and such. The truth is though, the winamp users are the majority, and that keeps the crowd happy. While I am a foobar guy myself, I dont believe everyone should start switching to foobar. At times I would show my sweet PanelsUI people - some would bite, while the majority would just shrug away saying "oh, that looks kinda cool". Some of my friends would prefer winamp for the milkdrop plugin alone - I have used both projectM and milkdrop enough to know which is superior. Winamp could be made to sound just every bit as good sonically as foobar. If listening to music is your priority than playing around with the player itself or your personal habits dictate that foobar's UI makes more sense, winamp is not an inferior product in any objective sense.

Why stop there, you could look at any other market segment that involves a product that caters a minority niche better vs another product that appeals to the larger masses. When the former fails to provide something groundbreakingly wonderful and turned into essential, people are rather indifferent and would be resilient to change.

 

[Chu]

@MikoLayer

I just want to comment about hardware/application support. Microsoft has traditionally been horrible at application support for developers, it's just as an end user you don't see much of it.

I remember back in 2004 I was working with the Tablet API, and large parts of it were flat out broken. There is no real way to communicate with Microsoft directly on these sorts of issues, so pretty much we just had to work around them and hope they were fixed at some point. Similarly large parts of the DirectSound API were completly undoccumented, and made trying to incorporate QOS on a DS stream an absolute nightmare.

These sorts of things are handeled differently in the linux world. I can talk directly to developers, so at the very least I know where the issues stand. If it's critical to get working correctly, I can even fix it myself because Linux is an 'open' system as opposed to Windows which is 'closed'. Doccumentation can be a bit thorny on the linux side as well, but it's generally not that hard to get in touch with someone who knows what is up. A lot of people in the Microsoft realm treat that sort of information as vauiable IP to be bought and sold.

The philosophical differences between the Linux and Windows world is really the driving force behind it, and it's not something easily understood from a pure technological perspective. I agree that for your average PC user Linux vs. Windows is sort of a moot point.

As DRM becomes more and more prevalent though, these philosophical differences might start to matter quite a bit to the end user. Some of the DRM built into Windows Vista is flat out scarry. There are parts of the DX10 standard that are dedicated to the best way to corrupt your a/v streams if the OS deems it necessary! Without your consent!

That being said, the technological advantages of Linux in a server envrionment are monumental. Windows flat out was not designed to be a server OS or a multi-user OS and short of a code rewrite it simply will not be able to touch linux in many areas because of architecural flaws. This is certainly not a "minor niche".

 

[Chu]

By the way, to whoever made the comment about the command line being outdated, there is a reason that Microsoft is putting a lot of work into their new "shell" in Vista Server. Right now there is no reliable way to script in a GUI and it's a major reason that people vastly prever *nix based systems for servers. GUIs are nice and all but they simply arn't powerful enough much of the time. Even some simple stuff in windows like copying a directory tree (robocopy <3) is almost impossible to do correctly without dropping into cmd.

 

[MoSXS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by balou /img/forum/go_quote.gif a statement from somebody who has apparently never used a unix shell... Working with a shell is a lot faster than clicking around in a GUI. (starting a programm? just type it's name. moving files selectively around [e.g. move all jpeg files in a separate directory]? mv *.jpg somedir. Editing a file? <yourfavoriteeditor> filename.txt. Without even lifting your hands from the keyboard you can start typing right away).

Sorry, but this is 2007. Everything for the end user should be graphical and automated to an extent.

As for Apple, I'm really just tired of their business practices. They went from being the hero for consumers to one of the most anti-consumer companies overnight. Deliberately locking out ringtones (we'll see how long it is until Apple "fixes" the current exploit allowing people to use their own sounds), ripping people off with the iPod games, major build quality issues, etc. Like I said in another thread, stealing $50 from me for the iPod games as bad as stealing $5,000.

 

[Ech0]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MoSXS Sorry, but this is 2007. Everything for the end user should be graphical and automated to an extent.

You are definitely a Windows guy.

I don't mean that in a bad way just that our opinions / preferences are different. I prefer fast and simple over graphical for "most" things. Video Editing software comes to mind for graphical though.

@MikoLayer: I had a few counterpoints for you, but, I very efficiently deleted them on my "nix" box before I could post them.

Readers Digest Version:
Hardware is not a problem as long as you know, going into your purchase, that it's going to be used in or with a linux box. Do a little research first and all is well. Secondly, a linux savvy user solves his problems the same way as a windows savvy person does google. I spend very little time "tweaking" or tinkering w/my box(s) anymore.

 

[MikoLayer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chu it's just as an end user you don't see much of it.

Isnt that what matters at the end? The question, at least in the form as was stated originally by OP, implied why "people" (not developers, programmers) use windows.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chu These sorts of things are handeled differently in the linux world. I can talk directly to developers, so at the very least I know where the issues stand. If it's critical to get working correctly, I can even fix it myself because Linux is an 'open' system as opposed to Windows which is 'closed'.

it is definitely good to have an option to DIY if possible, but in general I was under impression that some of the most popular hardware takes hoops and hoops to get up and running in linux variants. Not that windows drivers are perfect, but the chances are you are likely to do a decent amount of looking around just to get things working well unless it is really archaic stuff. In other words, since the companys consider the linux market not as high of the priority, the effort put into supporting them suffers, and users have to make up for that for the most part. History tells us that voluntary effort most always lags behind a more systematic approach; it is only natural that the newest piece of hardware are last to be funtional in linux. What that means to me at the end of the day is, I can expect windows to have higher chance of being more in tune with the cutting-edge stuff.

Sorry you had issues with the tablet. But as we speak, there are people having trouble to get their ATi cards to agree with linux (myself included), soundcards, TV cards - some of more commonplace and widespread items with more practical value to the masses.

Quote:

I agree that for your average PC user Linux vs. Windows is sort of a moot point.

That was my whole point really. I did not counter the OPs jab at windows into something like "linux is useless, why anyone ever uses it?" Rather, I am saying it isnt for everyone for a very good reason.

Quote:

As DRM becomes more and more prevalent though, these philosophical differences might start to matter quite a bit to the end user. Some of the DRM built into Windows Vista is flat out scarry.

Regretfully I am not well informed on this topic. Could you be more specific about things I should be aware of as a windows user? Havnt noticed anything out of ordinary with two of my vista machines thusfar. But it would be good to get a heads up so to say

Quote:

There are parts of the DX10 standard that are dedicated to the best way to corrupt your a/v streams if the OS deems it necessary! Without your consent!

That too, I would like to have more information on. I thought one of the highly touted features of vista was improvements in audio (for head-fi'ers its mostly about not havint to deal with the grievances of kmixer resampling)

Quote:

That being said, the technological advantages of Linux in a server envrionment are monumental. Windows flat out was not designed to be a server OS or a multi-user OS and short of a code rewrite it simply will not be able to touch linux in many areas because of architecural flaws. This is certainly not a "minor niche".

Corporate workplace != Desktop for personal use. Again, I was responding to the op and some of the posts pointing at the desktop usage. I do not claim to have enough knowledge to discuss server issues. Putting up a server and maintaining it is more than a niche for any foreseeable feature as far as the general public is concerned. What feeds them on the internet is a whole different story, which I spoke nothing of. You are probably right on that I suppose, there is gotta be a reason why the developer dudes love linux.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ech0 Hardware is not a problem as long as you know, going into your purchase, that it's going to be used in or with a linux box. Do a little research first and all is well. Secondly, a linux savvy user solves his problems the same way as a windows savvy person does google. I spend very little time "tweaking" or tinkering w/my box(s) anymore.

So you are implying and admitting that linux does not have as good of coverage, so the buyer beware and be selective. I never intended linux to replace my windows as the primary OS, I know I can do everything linux can do equally well on windows, not vice versa. I figure this is most certainly true for many people if they are in a capricious mood to just try it out. Most of us would not go out building machines just for the sake of running an OS we dont even have experience with. The premise here is that to claim that it has an adequate hardware support, these should work with what I already have, not the other way around as you suggest.

Linux is free, free is good. But I need to buy a whole new set of hardware just to get linux working? Give me a break. I must point out how people take this so personally with their affiilations to their own respective camps, and thus I say none of this is the OS developers' fault - more of a cold stern look at the market share, and the appropriate amount of support from third party firms.

At the very worst, the idea that linux must automatically be preffered by everyone due to ease of maintenance is a very questionable claim, and so in a way you and I both agree. I said in my earlier post that if one could put enough effort to teach and familiarize oneself to work with an alien OS (assuming most people are predominantly used to windows), it should not be so hard for him to manage his windows machine to a point at least where it is not so crash prone. Ditching windows because it crashes a lot is an overstatement and overused excuse IMO.

 

[Ech0]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikoLayer The premise here is that to claim that it has an adequate hardware support, these should work with what I already have, not the other way around as you suggest.

Linux "should" work the way it does as it is free and owes the user nothing. I gladly make my purchases geared towards a nix box as having used both systems it is my preference.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikoLayer But I need to buy a whole new set of hardware just to get linux working? Give me a break.

A bit of an exageration based on my own experience. I often do this myself though to prove a point.

The thought that if I can become proficient w/linux then I can overcome crashes in windows is something I agree with. However, that doesn't mean that once I see BSOD once or twice rather than "fix it" I may simply choose to go looking for something different. That is exactly what happened to me.

I like not having to worry about viruses, defragmenting a hard drive overnight... I like using the command line. These are just a few of the things that appeal to me.

Anyway, as someone said earlier no one is going to change their mind.

Enjoy your system, head-fi and all. I can understand why people choose Windows as their main OS. I on the otherhand know it's just not for me.

 

[RedLeader]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ech0 /img/forum/go_quote.gif The thought that if I can become proficient w/linux then I can overcome crashes in windows is something I agree with. However, that doesn't mean that once I see BSOD once or twice rather than "fix it" I may simply choose to go looking for something different. That is exactly what happened to me.

What I don't get though, is that people seem more willing to tinker with linux when it's not working, and just deride windows when it doesn't. When I first installed ubuntu 5, it took me close to 2 hours to get the display drivers working correctly. I never did quite get my maudio card working like I wanted, but I was willing to mess around and try and make it work. It's the same way with windows for me. I'm willing to work with beta drivers and little hacks to get my EMU0404 working. The last time I installed it, it actually recognized it automatically and installed it without me having to do anything but restart, which was really nice. Anyways, why are people more willing to work on getting linux working than windows? Is it because it's free? That's really the only reason I can think of. But even then, if you're thinking about a desktop user, they won't bother messing around with anything for 2 hours, they'll take it back to future shop and get a different one.

 

[MikoLayer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ech0 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Linux "should" work the way it does as it is free and owes the user nothing. I gladly make my purchases geared towards a nix box as having used both systems it is my preference. A bit of an exageration based on my own experience. I often do this myself though to prove a point. The thought that if I can become proficient w/linux then I can overcome crashes in windows is something I agree with. However, that doesn't mean that once I see BSOD once or twice rather than "fix it" I may simply choose to go looking for something different. That is exactly what happened to me. I like not having to worry about viruses, defragmenting a hard drive overnight... I like using the command line. These are just a few of the things that appeal to me. Anyway, as someone said earlier no one is going to change their mind. Enjoy your system, head-fi and all. I can understand why people choose Windows as their main OS. I on the otherhand know it's just not for me.

Thats great, I think it is always good to have alternative. I am still in the process of slowly getting my machines work with ubuntu, mostly just for the sake of learning and knowing how to get around with it as it seems to be gaining more and more support as time goes by - definitely a good sign.

Havnt had a virus problem ever since I started using NOD32. In vista, I believe the scheduler takes over by default and defrags for you when the system is idle. Not that fast and spacious ATA drives these days are that vulnerable to fragmentation to my knoledge, or feel noticeably sluggish even when they do get frragmented. I too like using command prompt in windows for certain things (ie ipconfig)

Hope you enjoy head-fi and maybe you could teach me a thing or two about linux

 

[Chu]

I might write out a full reply later, there are some points which I highly disagree with (volunteer efforts being slower/worse then commercial efforts, the "DIY" comment especially, and pretty much every desktop is a server these days and really benefits from the security associated with an OS built from the ground up to be a multi-user system) but regarding nod32, I have a lot of trouble trusting it in Vista. On my XP box there is an app that completely screws up if run on a SMP machine so I use the tool process.exe to restrict it to one core since there is no way in WinXP to do it via a shortcut.

Process.exe is flagged as "badware" in WinXP in nod32, and probably rightly so, because it has an absolute ton of malicious uses because of its power, and if you are not consciously using it you would do well to be incredibly suspicious of its presence.

In Vista however, nod32 does not flag it. I have a suspicion that nod32 running in user space cannot see apps running in privileged mode, which would have a huge effect on how well it could protect your system since a lot of worms don't come in via the user space.