Which SACD/DVD-A is best

[mikeg]

I already have a terrific SACD (i.e., a Marantz SA8260), but I want to set up a second system next to a TV. What I need to know is whether there is a unit that's excellent for playing Redbook, SACD, and DVD-A discs, as well as movie and opera DVDs. I'm specifically looking for a unit that equals or exceeds the sound reproduction quality of my Marantz SA8260. I'd really appreciate recommendations regarding such units, and also leads to reviews of such units.

 

[Welly Wu]

MikeG:

I think you are asking the right question but in the wrong Internet discussion forum. A lot of members here rely upon Compact Disc as their format of choice. Only a few members here invested in hi-rez formats and of that number, less than a handful have invested in both hi-rez formats. I am one of them. You would do much better to ask this same question in AudioAsylum or AVS Forum or any home theater discussion forum. A lot of people here don't believe that either hi-rez formats have what it takes to survive.

Of course, they're wrong but you should really search home theater discussion forums. If you want to invest in a good budget universal player, then I'd say the Denon DVD 2900 or Pioneer Elite DV-59AVi. If you can afford to spend upwards of $2000+ USD, then I would say hold off until September 2004 when Denon will release their Denon DVD 5910. Do not get the Denon DVD 5900 as the firmware updates and fixes are an ongoing process. Also, Denon is going to release the Denon DVD 3910 and 2910 which are going to be garnering rabid interest. Technology and sound wise, the Pioneer Elite DV-59AVi is the one to meet or beat especially for the street prices for both new and used units today.

 

[Welly Wu]

If you want more information about the Pioneer Elite DV-59AVi, then PM me. I'm willing to help you out with any questions or concerns.

 

[Wmcmanus]

Mike, I don't profess to know all of the choices or how they would rate relative to your player, but I've recently had the pleasure of spending some time with Doug's (ServinginEcuador) modded Denon 2900 and it is as smooth as silk on both SACD and DVD-A. The company that did the mods is Empirical Audio and I believe the full monty will run about $3k. It definitely went head to head with my tube rolled Shanling T200 (the one that was in the repair dock at the Florida meet), but the Shanling only does SACD. For redbook, the Denon was the clear winner.

It would be nice to have access to both formats (i.e., investing in a universal player) because this would give you many more options in terms of music. I know you're a classical listener and the good news is that there is more classical available on SACD than you can shake a stick at. I'm sure that many DVD-A releases are classical as well, although I'm very new to this format (only my Toshiba 4900 and 6 discs so far... so I've already spent more on music than I did on the player!)

Send a PM to Doug and he can fill you in on the Denon mods.

 

[mikeg]

Thanks very much for the info., but $3K is a bit more than I'm prepared to spend right now (i.e., I'm facing payment for an R10, and a Maestro). Even my very tolerant wife may find an additional $3K a bit hard to support. But, I'll retain your note, and possibly contact Doug in the future.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wmcmanus Mike, I don't profess to know all of the choices or how they would rate relative to your player, but I've recently had the pleasure of spending some time with Doug's (ServinginEcuador) modded Denon 2900 and it is as smooth as silk on both SACD and DVD-A. The company that did the mods is Empirical Audio and I believe the full monty will run about $3k. It definitely went head to head with my tube rolled Shanling T200 (the one that was in the repair dock at the Florida meet), but the Shanling only does SACD. For redbook, the Denon was the clear winner. It would be nice to have access to both formats (i.e., investing in a universal player) because this would give you many more options in terms of music. I know you're a classical listener and the good news is that there is more classical available on SACD than you can shake a stick at. I'm sure that many DVD-A releases are classical as well, although I'm very new to this format (only my Toshiba 4900 and 6 discs so far... so I've already spent more on music than I did on the player!) Send a PM to Doug and he can fill you in on the Denon mods.

 

[Welly Wu]

THIS is uplifting news for die-hard universal DVD player with aftermarket modification fanatics!

Knowing that your budget is probably under $2000 USD, I would suggest the following tasty universal DVD players:

Can be bought new / used today for under $2000 USD:
Denon DVD 5900
Pioneer Elite DV-59AVi
Marantz DV-8400
Denon DVD 2900
Denon DVD 2200

Can not be bought yet but to keep keen interest in under $2000 USD:
Denon DVD 2910
Denon DVD 3910
Denon DVD 5910 (think: Halle Berry)

MikeG:

You got to tell us more information. I know you are getting the SONY MD R10 and the flagship Mikhail Supra...something.

With those kinds of investments, what kind of sound are specifically after? What's it gonna take to make you smile day in and day out? Do you want something that has cavernous soundstage, delicate warmth, spot on imaging, focused dynamics and stunning realism? (my guesses)

Then, you are after a universal DVD player that is probably 1. hybrid -- tube / solid state designed, 2. has a stock sound that leans on the warm side.

I would say your candidates are the Denon DVD 5900 / 5910 (first), Marantz DV-8400 (2nd) and Pioneer Elite DV-59AVi (2nd), and a Denon DVD 2900 (3rd). I have heard all three at CSA Audio in Upper Montclair, NJ. The Denon has this amazing soundstage and sparkling clarity that leans toward the analytical side. Very precise imaging. Stunning Red Book CD especially with the default AL24 Processing which by itself would make it a worthy $2000 USD Compact Disc Player only. Incredible macrodynamic swing with fine microdynamic extraction. Very prominant bass that is tight, articulated, controlled, and powerful. Very dry but highly accurate midrange. Sparkling treble a bit on the bright side. All are my general listening impressions from visiting the store about 6 months ago for about 20 minutes and stock configuration units only. Marantz DV-8400: this is a real treat. Go to http://www.audiorevolution.com and go to your local Barnes & Nobles or Borders Book & Music store to take a look at Grammophon, Opera, and Classical FM periodicals. Try to find the June / July 2004 editions for the 3 page review. Audiorevolution has a review for June / July 2004. Sound wise, it has a lot going for it. Smooth, relaxed, and warm. A smaller but more inviting forward soundstage. Better definition and gentler bass. Smoothened yet clear trebles. Gentler and smaller dynamics but very very fine microdynamics. Clearly, this Marantz DV-8400 is tuned to please classical and jazz lovers.

My Pioneer Elite DV-59AVi gets its' own paragraph. OK. This is my 1:33 AM EST mini-review after 5 months of solid ownership. First, this is my last and greatest source before a TRUE UNIVERSAL HD-DVD / BLU-RAY PLAYER hits the market at a price I can not afford to deny. First, it's a computer. No...really...it's a computer because I can configure every audio / video setting from enabling HiBit / Legato PRO and the three custom Pioneer Elite filters (this deals with Red Book CD upsampling to 24bit/192KHz) to the 14 customizable settings for the HDMI 1080i DVD-Video output. What does that mean? It allows you to use AVIA PRO to calibrate your DVD-Video performance to match the tweaked out settings for your HDTV or CRT TV and it allows you to tune the brightness / warmth / darkness of the sound to your gear without sending the unit to an aftermarket modder (which I presume you will get more research about soon; I'm doing it by the end of this summer). The Elite DV-59AVi generally leans on the warm side without being incoherent or unfocused. Bass extends down deeply with an emphasis on the low / mid bass region. Articulation and definition of the deepest end of the bottom end still remain clear while retaining added attack and punch (yes, even with $1000 USD earphones). The upper bass and lower midrange are kind of merged together and lack separation apart from each other. Yet, the midrange is lusciously warm, clear, and detailed. Music lives in the midrange and I still get that forward sound, that darkness, that warmth that sends shivers through my nerves late at night without disturbing anyone at very low volumes. I listen at extremely low volumes like around 45 - 50dB thanks to my earphones. Treble is rolled off and smoothed out but it is clear, articulated, and resolved. Such are my impressions with HiBit/Legato PRO enabled for Red Book CD playback only.

DVD-Audio. Take that above signature and maximize it with ad infinitum resolution. The machine literally becomes something else with DVD-Audio because sound becomes three dimensional and holographic with mind boggling resolution and detail along with ultra precise imaging to die for. Music becomes a living, breathing, entity that overtakes your auditory senses. Forget the age old debate: do I want to feel like I'm sitting in the 3rd row or do I want musicians playing in my living room. We're talking about musicians playing on stage and you get to walk around while they jam and observe their gesticulations and playing styles. It is being there and hanging out with them while they play for you. Soundstage has its own realm with back to forward and top to bottom dimensions.

Super Audio CD. It sounds fundamentally different from DVD-Audio and RB CD. We're talking about ultra smoothness and a fuller, more relaxed sound. Timbral accuracy, attack / natural decay of notes, and analog naturalness are some words to describe SA-CD. The Elite DV-59AVi is by far the best universal DVD player to handle SA-CD. As The Absolute Sound said, "there is no litmus test for SA-CD" with regard to which universal DVD players have PURE DSD with NO PCM CONVERSION. I note that I can listen to SA-CD and walk away feeling entirely refreshed and rejuvinated in spirits with my source component. This is real music in a digital sense. When I heard the Bob Dylan Blonde on Blonde Hybrid SA-CD, I was like, "so, this is what analog sort of sounds like. I like it!" The sound was so natural, smooth, and non-fatiguing especially when I swapped out the AD797 and the LT1028 op-amps from my Emmeline HR-2 that I was like, "it's nice to have a universal player that ain't no slouch with any particular format."

DVD-Video. Holy cow. It looks like a real film especially using the HDMI 1080i video conversion. I could see the graininess of certain films like Unforgiven and it had that look 'n feel of watching a modern Spaghetti Western (remember those Clint Eastwood flims). The Lord of the Rings: I, II, and III looked so color rich and detailed that it was like those actors were living in front of me. I've never seen anything that damned good even in movie theaters. It was so hyper-real and super-natural. You don't know how milky white Liv Tyler's skin is until you see it on a Pioneer Elite Plasma 50" HDTV with a HDMI connection. I could see how beautiful her light blue and light purple blood veins were as they were bathed in this beautiful milky white canvas of her skin. Her eyes -- I've never seen such an oily black sheen protected by a thin clear filament on screen ever. I saw each single strand of her hair and how any movement of her head resembled the bristles of a broom sweeping the ground. I ain't no videophile. I don't even like liberal, democratic, Hollywood. Hence, I don't watch movies, films, or DVD-Videos...maybe two per year at the most. I do read a lot and I do listen to music a lot more. Imagine reading your favorite book and imagining all the details given to your mind by an exceptional author: that's what it looks like with the Elite DV-59AVi and DVD-Video @ 1080i HDMI with a perfectly calibrated plasma HDTV. So remarkable. I'll never forget that first visual experience.

You can get one for well under $950 USD including FedEx Ground Shipping brand new or ~ < $750 USD used on Audio / Videogon. Then, you can send it to ModWright LLC for mods. He has different services and parts so it's best to send him an e-mail message to get an idea.

Here is what I'm doing with mine when I send it to Modwright:

Pioneer Standalone Multi-Channel Mod with AD8065/8066 op-amps ($150 USD)
Level II Transport Mod ($375 USD)
Power Supply Upgrade Mod ($150 USD)
LC Audio SuperClock X03 with Clock Supply Mod ($450)

Package deal price: $1100 USD + shipping

So, yeah, it's good. However, I am going to make it great. I'm sending it to Modwright. By August 31st, 2004 or the day I land a full time entry level career in the publishing industry in NYC whichever comes first. There's enough potential inside the stock Pioneer Elite DV-59AVi that I am convinced sending it to expertise hands for modifications will satisfy my search for a source component for the next 2 years solid. There's enough technology in this machine to future proof me for two years. Then, I'll get a true HD-DVD / Blu-Ray Universal player by researching like a hound dog for the best manufacturer / model, prices, and I'll send it off to a reputable expertise modder for maximum audio / video performance. It never ends. But, I know that I'm in this Headphone HI-FI for life.

 

[Welly Wu]

This Onkyo DV-CP802 Universal Carousel DVD Player is attractive but not much is known about its real world audio / video performance since it is brand spankin' new: http://www.audioholics.com/news/pres...yoDV-CP802.php !

 

[mikeg]

Thanks Welly, for the tremendous info the you provided, and for the fine review regarding the DV-59AVi. As for the kind of sound that I'm after, you expressed it perfectly; i.e., "one that makes me smile, day in and day out. A sound that has cavernous soundstage, delicate warmth, spot-on imaging, focused dynamics, and stunning realism." That's it in a nutshell.

For now there's a change in my plans. I'll no longer place the music system near a TV, and therefore the video recedes in importance. Video was, in fact, never as important as audio. For me, it's all about audio, and solely through headphones.

To help me decide about which player to buy, agile_one and I will do some comparisons between his Meridian 588 (which plays only Redbook CDs), and my Marantz SA8260 SACD. What I'm specifically interested in is whether SACDs played on my Marantz sound as good as the Redbook versions of the identical recordings played on agile_one's Meridian. If the SACDs on the Marantz sound as good as the Redbook recordings on the Meridian, then I feel that I can purchase a mid-priced SACD or universal player. One suggestion that was given to me was to buy a good Denon universal player, and then have it upgraded by Esoteric Audio. What do you think of this idea? BTW, your plan to upgrade your DV-59AVi is of great interest to me, and it's an option that I may pursue. This question of which player to buy is tougher for me to decide than the questions of which headphone and amplfier to buy. As for the amplifier, I've decided to buy Mikhails SinglePower Maestro amp. which sounds just awesome with the R10. As for the Maestro, it's a step up from SinglePower's Supra player.

 

[Welly Wu]

MikeG:

First, you need to compare the same Red Book CDs against their SA-CD counterparts. Try to see if you can get another source component that can also handle SA-CD. I think you should get impressions from two different SA-CD capable players before you go about plunking down money in a mid-fi universal player or a high end one.

I've still got to do my review between the Emmeline HR-2 and Emmeline II The Stealth. Then, I'll do a review of the stock Elite DV-59AVi by the end of summer and another separate review of the ModWright Elite DV-59AVi by late October. That should put enough time for you to audition as many universal source players and learn about the settings, the strengths, and the weaknesses. You'll have both of my reviews as a sort of idea about the Elite DV-59AVi before / after modification to refer to. Also, you'll also be set to make a purchasing decision on a universal DVD player come after Thanksgiving and into the Christmas / New Years shopping season. It will be a great way to start 2005.

 

[SunByrne]

Hmm, the Onkyo is *very* interesting. J&R is taking pre-orders for $450, too, so it's really afforadable. Wonder how it sounds... the fact that it has a "defeat video circuitry" switch gives me hope that they actually put some thought into the audio performance...

 

[Welly Wu]

SHHHhhh...don't let MarkL know about it.

 

[Welly Wu]

For a more affordable universal DVD carousel player, check out the Toshiba SD-6915. Read here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hreadid=406596

 

[Welly Wu]

Denon DVD 2910 and 3910 information and pictures herein: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hreadid=415030

 

[agile_one]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Welly Wu Denon DVD 2910 and 3910 information and pictures herein: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hreadid=415030

Welly, you are a lunatic, and a fountain of knowledge on the hirez formats.

I have learned much by watching this thread - thank you for sharing your experience and knowledge.

 

[Welly Wu]

No no no. I am no fountain of knowledge. I simply share knowledge gained from true experts. Lunatic. Maybe.

Ok. By now, you probably know I'm a member of AVS Forum. You know how we had threads in Head-Fi about whether post count = prestige and all that other non-sensical stuff about gauging who really knows their stuff or not? Well, on AVS Forum, there are two audio professionals who work in the biz that are very well worth paying attention to: Kris Deering and Stacey Spears. They are a part of a collaborative team that works on the Secrets of Home Theater reviews. What is that? Basically, they do what Stereophile does with audio equipment: they test and measure and publish. By the way, their information is free. No costs to get access to some of the most stringent video tests in the biz. So, if you want to ever know how a certain DVD capable player stacks up in the video tests, you go to them. AVS Forum is a videophile forum and shoot, you can learn a lot just by reading their posts.

That's what makes universal DVD players so exciting particularly now. Say you get bored of listening to your music even your favorites. Say now is not a particularly good week to buy any more new music. Pop in a DVD-Video! Watch a movie in the comfort of your own bedroom or living room. Diversity and variety are the spice of life and the universal DVD players are hot tamales. Owning a universal DVD player is becoming more affordable for the masses: the 3rd and 4th quarter of 2004 will usher in a bevy of new models made by a plethora of manufacturers at all different price points. Say you want to dip your toes in the universal DVD player waters. You can have a handful for under $200 and most are under $150. Say you want to go for it but not forfeit your house mortgage. The middle-fi is going to turn out to be the most actively discussed, watched, and anticipated price segment for those who visit AVS Forum, Stereophile Guide to Home Theater, and Head-Fi (hopefully). Between $500 - $2000 USD, you will see a lot of very choice universal DVD players hitting the market and causing writers and editors at major HI-FI periodicals to spill some serious ink in their reviews.

Want to go nuts with the universal DVD player concept? Bel Canto. Linn. Goldmund. They're available for purchase if you have $10,000+ USD in disposable income.

What does this mean for the hi-rez formats? Good news. More hardware at a very wide range of price brackets means both the general masses and audiophiles alike will see more software releases for both DVD-Audio and SA-CD. IF CONSUMERS BUY MORE UNIVERSAL DVD PLAYERS, THEN THEY WILL HAVE THE HARDWARE WITH WHICH TO VOTE WHICH HI-REZ FORMAT STAYS AND WHICH ONE GOES! At the very least, I'm highly optimistic that both formats can survive by major record companies continuing to pump out re-releases and include hi-rez offerings with emerging artists and their new releases. In the next year, I know that universal DVD players will still be attracting more attention and attraction for regular folks and audiophiles alike for their convenience, prices, quality, and performance. It is my utmost hope that this will tempt and compel both regular folks and audiophiles alike to investigate both hi-rez formats and demand more releases. It is sort of like pump priming.