[tstarn06]

Thanks Tony. I was just thinking it would be cool to see a ranking of preference factors. And voila!

Quote:

Originally Posted by antonyfirst /img/forum/go_quote.gif To me, with IEMs it is: 1-frequency balance and "rightness" 2-soundstage 3-extention (deep bass, decent treble extention) 4-speed/detail retrieval (but without any spikes) Comfort is not ranked but needs to be "good enough", so flexible cable, not too many microphonics, and especially the ability to reach the seal. The Apuresound Etys go closest as possible to my liking, but fail at soundstage. Still they are the less flawed portable headphones I have owned.

 

[average_joe]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tstarn06 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Can an IEM be great if soundstage is one of its weak points? Just a thought.

Before I heard the IE8s, yes, the NE-7s were very enjoyable for me, for what they are, IEMs. The IE8 has raised the bar in soundstage IMO.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tstarn06 /img/forum/go_quote.gif So in your case, you chose sound stage over instrument resolution? Is that fair?

I choose overall presentation which got me much more involved and made the music more enjoyable. The difference was small, but noticeable in A/B testing of specific passages. The IE8 is great in resolution, but the PFE is slightly better IMO. But the difference between the soundstage is much bigger with the IE8 winning hands down.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bolardito /img/forum/go_quote.gif UE11= huge soundstage, 3D like sound presentation, excellent detail and awesome instrument separation. Is like having the best of all IEM's (W3, IE8 and SE530) condenscend in a single IEM. With the UE11 you don't sacrifice anything (well except a thousand bucks!). They really sound like full size phones.

Just making an uninformed comment, like some people seem to do on here

, thanks for clarifying. And for $1,000, I would hope they are better than the IE8s for the people that own them the UE11!

 

[antonyfirst]

Tom, you are welcome

 

[tstarn06]

Quote:

Originally Posted by soozieq /img/forum/go_quote.gif I know I can't enjoy a narrow soundstage, no matter how great the detail is. I just find it very tiring and unenjoyable. As for instrument resolution over soundstage, I guess it's simply down to personal preference. I was quite happy to give up the W3's last ounce of detail for the big IE8 soundstage, bass and midrange. But that doesn't mean the IE8 has no detail, it does. The W3 will suit some people's listening preferences better than the IE8 - and likewise, the other way round. What people will end up choosing is what sounds more enjoyable to their own ears overall, regardless of anything else. Anyway, aren't you still happy with the Phonak? Is it just curiosity you're feeling about the IE8, or is there something lacking in your current set up that you think the IE8 might fill? Just asking, because I thought you were really set with the Phonak (above the W3!!)

Yep, still very happy with the Phonaks, especially when hooked up to the minibox and Touch LOD. But always interested in different flavors of IEM. Aren't we all? I know you went through a pretty good list, right? You found your perfect in-ear phone. I guess maybe I haven't yet. Am curious to hear the Monster Turbines I just got since they are dynamics, like the IE8. Burning them in right now with pink noise.

 

[Feather225]

IE8's sound stage is relatively large compared to similar priced IEMs due to its dynamic nature. really wanna hear the UE 10&11 and make a compare.

 

[GN85]

Does anyone think that perhaps comfort has something to do with soundstage? What I mean by this is that if earphones are so comfortable that you barely notice them, your brain could be tricked into thinking that the sound is coming from further away, creating the impression of better soundstage.

 

[davidhunternyc]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tstarn06 /img/forum/go_quote.gif This may be a dumb question, but how critical is soundstage to enjoying an in-ear phone? All of a sudden, it seems soundstage is the number one reason to own an IEM (at least one in-ear phone, the IE8). I've read a lot of posts on Head-Fi, most of them about in-ear phones, and until the IE8 came along, soundstage was just one factor in a positive IEM experience. Now, it sort of has become the driving force behind owning an top tier IEM, it seems. Am I oversimplifying? Does the soundstage now render all of those other critical listening factors (detail, PRAT, etc.) as secondary.

The reason why I asked this question in the opening post is because I find that an IEM that provides a large soundstage to be a remarkable feat considering it sits inside the ear. I do not believe soundstaging to be the be-all and end-all criteria for a great sounding IEM. It is merely one factor. I find soundstaging to be more easily achieved in full sized headphones and speakers and each apparatus has its own strengths and weaknesses. For IEM's, I consider soundstaging to be a difficult task indeed, with soundstaging usually not being one of its strengths.

 

[tstarn06]

In the case of the IE8s, it must be pretty remarkable. Maybe someday I will check them out. Seems some remarkable progress is being made with in-ear phones.

 

[average_joe]

Quote:

Originally Posted by GN85 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Does anyone think that perhaps comfort has something to do with soundstage? What I mean by this is that if earphones are so comfortable that you barely notice them, your brain could be tricked into thinking that the sound is coming from further away, creating the impression of better soundstage.

To me, most of the IEMs I have used are comfortable, with the IE8s almost on top (Phonak holds that honor). I have PK3 earbuds, and to me they aren't as comfortable as IEMs, I guess my outer ear is more sensitive than inner ear. Anyways, the soundstage on those is wider than my NE-7s, which are way more comfortable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by davidhunternyc /img/forum/go_quote.gif The reason why I asked this question in the opening post is because I find that an IEM that provides a large soundstage to be a remarkable feat considering it sits inside the ear. I do not believe soundstaging to be the be-all and end-all criteria for a great sounding IEM. It is merely one factor. I find soundstaging to be more easily achieved in full sized headphones and speakers and each apparatus has its own strengths and weaknesses. For IEM's, I consider soundstaging to be a difficult task indeed, with soundstaging usually not being one of its strengths.

Well, soundstage isn't be-all end-all, but the IE8s offer a fun that my other IEMs just don't. And with all other things being even, I would go for wider soundstage.

Also, I think how you listen to a IEM, and what you are trying to accomplish also determines the importance of the soundstage.

 

[average_joe]

I decided to resurrect this thread since the soundstage debate in The simplest yet most amazing tip for IE8 owners (updated)(slow for 56k) thread, and I wanted to throw in my 0.02 and not derail that thread.

Again, you can read my previous comments on how I feel about soundstage in general, but these are my most recent comments. And all recent listening has been with my Fuze -> LOD -> E5. I do think that configuration is far superior to the HP out, and even superior to HP out -> E5. I do now have over 1000 hours on my E5 (continuous burn in while connected to USB for power) and the detail and soundstage width is far superior to the HP out of the Fuze with my IE8 (I actually do prefer the E5 with the ADDIEM, PK3, and NE-7, but the differences aren't nearly as large).

Listening to the IE8 and why I like it better vs. the W3 and UM3x for most songs I have compared the 2 with (I know, limited listening) is how the IE8 makes me feel when I am listening to so many songs. I feel like I am actually there, in a good sized room with a great 3D space.

In comparison, there may be good 3-D such as the ADDIEM, or great width with the NE-7, but I can now tell the problem with the soundstage. The W3s (which I liked better than the UM3X) did sound splendid, but the room the presentation was in was smaller, less realistic, or at least less than I am used to with the IE8 and it bothered me. I can't remember the songs now, but listening to my pop/rock/R&B collection on vacation has given me a new appreciation for some of the songs.

The space and the presentation just make me feel so connected, I don't get that with any other IEM I have tried. No this isn't the case for all songs, and yes, the W3 was close, but there was a big enough difference during my audition to prefer the IE8 overall.

I was thinking of getting the Amazon IEMs at 75% off, great deals, but I realized they wouldn't get much ear time.

Now, the IE8 does also have great detail, impact, dynamics, transparency (at least with my tips) that make it close if not equal to the other top dogs, so add in the soundstage and for me it is a winner. I honestly haven't A/Bed with full sized and thought I had the inferior can. And also IMO the tips do make a huge difference vs. stock tips (which I did think I got a decent seal with).

Just my 0.02, thanks for reading!

 

[decay]

What I find more interesting is how IE8's headstage evolve when you spend more time
with it, be it burn-in, listening, tweaking tips and fit.
I remember when I first heard it with the default medium single flange, and the sound
was... unremarkable.
Yes, yes, there is a sense of bigger space but it just don't feel real THEN. Burning helped
I'd say 2/3 of the progress IE8 made, with tips/fit/wear making up for the rest.

And when the headstage first opened up, it was a revelation, as if a long with short width
box suddenly became a bigger square box, and you are sitting somewhere to the back of
the box. It was when 2.5D became 3D.

The second time when the headstage changed was subtler, but no less amazing. As
if the box got bigger again, but hard to describe/measure how big it has gotten because
the "wall" faded. Instead of that "wall" a sense of black curtain made of air. What
reverberation I used to hear do still sound like where they are recorded, but a new sense
of "air" changed the way sound disappear and you can't help but notice and track how
those sounds fade. All things in this paragraph are meant to say this: it got more realistic.

I hope I can hear a third revelation when I get a dac/amp, or a replacement cable for IE8.
I do like to imagine how different cables with different impedance effect IE8's sound.

 

[davidhunternyc]

Quote:

Originally Posted by average_joe /img/forum/go_quote.gif Listening to the IE8 and why I like it better vs. the W3 and UM3x for most songs I have compared the 2 with (I know, limited listening) is how the IE8 makes me feel when I am listening to so many songs. I feel like I am actually there, in a good sized room with a great 3D space.

I am glad you resurrected this topic. When I started this thread I was so sincere about trying to find the most perfect IEM with the greatest soundstage. Now that I have heard many IEM's and I have been living with my beloved IE8 for some time now, I honestly feel that I have a much greater handle on this subject. First of all, I am pragmatic about a lot of things, especially audiophile gear. It seems to me that the new-and-improved has been happening for so long now that we should have reached perfect-sound-forever ages ago. As we all know, that hasn't happened. One of the ideas, which I have mentioned elsewhere, that I am now insistent on, is that with IEM's in particular, the term "soundstage" should be changed to "headstage". Unlike the post above, I do not believe that IEM's have soundstage. I understand though what the post means, especially with regards to the IE8, that it is impressive and there is a tremendous presence with the sound. Yet, it is alway in my head and though there is a simulation of 3D space, I find that I can pinpoint the simulation in the different areas "in my head", hence why I prefer the term headstage to soundstage. I just do not believe that with IEM's, the monitor's insertion inside so close to the tympanic membrane (ear canal), can ever fool the brain into thinking that the space the music is being played in is real; a simulation of space, yes, actual space, no. With that said, I love my IE8. It presents a full musical picture and it is so warm and enveloping also. Will it ever full me into believing that I'm at a real concert? No. Does it make me smile, yes.

 

[decay]

Just edited my post, now "soundstage" is "headstage".
Soundstage is used so often that I type it unconsciously.

I do disagree with how much IEMs can fool the brain.
With certain songs at a regular volume, the vibrations from the drums
were "felt" hitting my lower ribs; the sound from a piano which in my
headstage is place close to my left, was felt on the left shoulder.
I stared at my shoulder while still feeling that sensation.
So no, like my sig IE8 will grant you moments that you savor, for they
gave a very realistic sense that you are listening live, only when certain
criterias are met, whatever they may be.

Last, mind if you re-paragraph your post? It's bit difficult to track your
message when it's all in a block.

 

[average_joe]

Quote:

Originally Posted by decay /img/forum/go_quote.gif All things in this paragraph are meant to say this: it got more realistic. I hope I can hear a third revelation when I get a dac/amp, or a replacement cable for IE8. I do like to imagine how different cables with different impedance effect IE8's sound.

I can't say there was a "point" in time where the stage opened up more, and I am not sure if it is the IEM, the amp, or a combination of both. I do think amps help out a lot as the IE8 does have a lot of additional space that can be brought out, even with lower end amplification such as the E5.

Quote:

Originally Posted by davidhunternyc /img/forum/go_quote.gif One of the ideas, which I have mentioned elsewhere, that I am now insistent on, is that with IEM's in particular, the term "soundstage" should be changed to "headstage". Unlike the post above, I do not believe that IEM's have soundstage. I understand though what the post means, especially with regards to the IE8, that it is impressive and there is a tremendous presence with the sound. Yet, it is alway in my head and though there is a simulation of 3D space, I find that I can pinpoint the simulation in the different areas in my head, hence why I prefer the term headstage to soundstage. I just do not believe that with IEM's, the monitor's insertion inside so close to the tympanic membrane (ear canal), can ever fool the brain into thinking that the space the music is being played in is real; a simulation of space, yes, actual space, no. With that said, I love my IE8. It presents a full musical picture and it is so warm and enveloping also. Will it ever full me into believing that I'm at a real concert? No. Does it make me smile, yes.

I guess my brain is easily fooled! I have listened to all my IEMs specifically for sound location and how far out the stage goes. I agree with the headstage for all but the IE8. Sure, there are some recordings that are all in my head with the IE8, but I have plenty that do extend past my ears, and never seems to fail, but I think there is someone else in the room because the sounds are not coming from my head.

Primarily this occurs in electronic music, but recently while listening to my pop/rock collection, some of the recording spaces are wider than my head, and I can hear the ends of the room extend out of my head. Again, only with the IE8, only with some songs.

Again, maybe it is my tips that have very good isolation and a great seal. Maybe my music (primarily in FLAC). Maybe my brain. All I gotta say is I am happy I get to experience it.

Also, I must say I have compared the IE8 to full sized HPs and to me, the IE8 is more involving and encompassing to me. While full sized cans do sound wider, the HPs don't disappear like the IE8, and not a night and day difference. Again, maybe just my brain, but I think I prefer IEMs over full size (well, the IE8). Now, if I bought a full sized can and had hours of listening time, maybe my opinion would change, but for now, there it is!

 

[CoMePunk]

Another vote for IE8.

But although it has the widest soundstage of all IEMs I've tried, it's still can't give me the sensation of "large concert hall" like what the open-back full sized headphone can give...