[mattyb]

Thanks Seidhepriest!

ok well I'm quite content then on ordering the x-fi elite pro (with the external box for hooking up the headphones) & the headphones which you recommended, AKG K240 Studio Headphones. They look great!

At least this way, I'll be able to do everything that I want to do

down the track though, I will setup a dedicated music production box, which will make things a lot easier, and more professional.

Thanks for all the help guys

This board kicks ass!

Matty B.

 

[Peter Pinna]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mattyb /img/forum/go_quote.gif Thanks guys I'm still deciding on the headphones pretty much.. but I'm faced with an "amp" problem now. I've read that you need an amp to power these high-end headphones, and that a PC sound card won't really be enough. Is this really true? Jo-Vo: M-audio is not good for games. The sound card choices for me is restricted to the x-fi line or possibly the auzentech prelude. From what I've read, the auzentech has preamps built into it as opposed to the x-fi? I think I read it as 5vms or something like that as opposed to 2.5vms or something similar from the x-fi. Does that essentially mean it will be twice as loud? I don't know much about this stuff. I know that I already have a bass-line model of the sennies, which are VERY low and the sound has to be turned right up to get any good sound from it. The other model which I'm using now is actually designed for portables (Sennheiser PX 100) and they are MUCH louder! so I'm guessing they have a stronger drive built-in or something being portable? or I suppose in this case a lesser-drive thats required? Someone said something about having their high-end headphones hooked up to the audigy 2 via the front panel. Does it make a difference when plugged into the front panel as opposed to the back of the sound card? And how loud exactly is this sound? do you have to up the volume to max to achieve a good result? Peter Pinna, thanks for the very lengthy reply, and do not worry, I'm not offended in any way. Even tho I'm a beginner, I'm still aware that monitors are the BEST way to mix music period. Unfortunately though, I can't afford good monitors right now, and would rather concentrate on decent headphones as I have much more privacy, and can use them at whatever time I like (might wanna fool around with a track at 2am or something.) That being said though, based on everything I've read so far.. decent headphones can still achieve very good results for this purpose! I like to mix it up personally with my current equipment (mix on headphones first, then move to speakers and fine-tune it.) My equipment is novice at best (not designed for audio production.) I was considering for the time being probably investing in an X-Fi elite pro because it has higher quality DACS over the other models, and wanted to hook up a pair of headphones thru the elite control box (but ive heard you NEED an amp?) I've read about people suggesting USB DACS with builtin amps etc. Sounds like a great idea, but isn't that basically just a filter that will bypass my soundcard all together? I just wish I didn't play games.. this wouldn't be so hard then My main concern is having a sound card that will produce tight productions as opposed to what I have now (Audigy 2), and will also excel in games! and to somehow use a decent pair of headphones thru this new setup for both games & producing. Bare in mind that I will only be using a midi controller keyboard for recording in conjunction with vstis. I need something that is going to make vsti samples sound TIGHT! My budget all up is around $650 - $700 for the soundcard and headphones. If you guys have any good possible suggestions to my ordeal.. please let me know! I've also posted another message in regards to headphones/dacs with the x-fi. Thanks guys! heh.. I really have to stop writing such long messages.

It's OK, write messages as long as you want.
On my office computer, I have a Creative SoundBlaster Audigy 2 ZS Platinum which has a front panel control as well as the sound card jacks on the back. The headphone jack on the front panel produces a clear sound that when it's volume knob is turned to it's maximum, produces a moderate to moderately low volume in my Proline 750's.
I don't use the Audigy 2 card for professional purposes but for personal listening and recording, it has a very nice sound, to say the least. Since you are considering using a somewhat similar card (X-Fi), and you are on a budget, I will make a suggestion for an amp.
The Behringer Amp 800 costs around $40 and especially when the price is considered, I find myself impressed by it's sound. I have never used this amp for professional purposes. It is attached to the back of my Audigy sound card on my office computer and I use it to listen to music via headphones while working on that computer. Although, as previously stated, I don't use this amp for professional purposes, I have read posts and reviews by musicians who have used the Behringer Amp 800 for professional recording purposes and have been pleased with it's performance. It is easy for me to understand why they would choose to use it. Other than it's clear, undistorted sound, it has eight headphone jacks and individual controls for four of them. It also has the capability to "receive" audio from 2 sources. Listeners can listen independently to the two sources separately.
I would not recommend this amp to an Audio Professional or an Audio Enthusiast as their "first line" headphone amp. However, I would recommend it as a secondary amp, perhaps for taking on a trip or to use in the workshop or bedroom. If you have a need for a central unit enabling multiple headphone jacks at a more than reasonable price, this might be a good consideration for you.
Here is a link to a highly reputable on-line as well as physical store that carries the Behringer Amp 800, if you want to find out more about it:

Behringer | AMP800 - MINIAMP Compact 4-Channel | MINI AMP AMP800

Before you spend too much of your budget, you might want to check out this amp. If you don't like it, you can always send it back. My thinking, here, in trying to save you some money, is that, perhaps, with this amp, you would be able to use either your current sound card or the XFI (because it costs less than others) more than you thought you could. It would, at the very least, help you in starting on your projects. One contradiction to this point might be concerning a need for a multi-input interface which neither your current sound card (Audigy 2) or the XFI provides, to my knowledge.

Someone made a comment giving the impression that there is an absolute need for a sub-woofer in mixing so therefore only monitors can be used. I admit, that I prefer to mix with monitors but with some headphones, as the technology is today, I find myself in some degree of disagreement with the idea that a sub-woofer is an absolute necessity so therefore only monitors and not headphones can be used for mixing purposes.
In reading this person's post, it became very clear to me that he / she has never heard bass (low frequencies) via the Ultrasone Pro 750's which has a clean, tight, centered and right "in the pocket" sounding bass. It's beautiful! And, that is only one example.
At the risk of being redundant, I will repeat my recommendation for you to hear the Pro 750's (burned-in, if possible as they produce a much better sound when they are burned-in). You were thinking of the AKG K 201's if I understood your post correctly. While I believe the AKG K201's and the 701's are excellent, accurate headphones, when everything is taken into consideration, I prefer the Pro 750's.
I could close this post by saying "That's my 2 cents", but with all that I've written here it's more like "That's my one dollar and seventy five cents."
Good luck!

 

[Peter Pinna]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nocturnal310 /img/forum/go_quote.gif what is PITA?

It's a type of bread.

 

[edhamgtr]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Pinna /img/forum/go_quote.gif I have never heard a headphone that was more similar to the sound of high quality studio monitors (with no additional EQing in an accoustically controlled room) than the Pro 750.

Peter,
I'm curious as to which monitor you think the 750's sound like.

I've been engineering for 20+ years and don't think the 750's sound like accurate studio monitors at all.


To the original poster,
The trick to mixing on headphones is to continually A/B your mix to a high quality commercial mix that you admire. this will keep you from straying too far off course - which is easy to do on any headphone.
reasonable results can be had by most any quality phone if you take the time to "learn" them by A/Bing.

770's would be pretty tough to mix on though. Lot's of bass - lack of low mids. But by referencing your mix who knows ..... they might work anyway.

 

[Wilashort]

Or an Anime called PITA Ten, hehehe. In spanish the word PITA is in englsih = string, and is a plant too that produces this material/derived.
Peter, excellent recommendation. It's one perfect headphone for all of those purposes at the "same time". Ah, the DT770pro/80 is a very good choice too.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Pinna /img/forum/go_quote.gif It's a type of bread.

 

[Peter Pinna]

Quote:

Originally Posted by edhamgtr /img/forum/go_quote.gif Peter, I'm curious as to which monitor you think the 750's sound like. I've been engineering for 20+ years and don't think the 750's sound like accurate studio monitors at all. To the original poster, The trick to mixing on headphones is to continually A/B your mix to a high quality commercial mix that you admire. this will keep you from straying too far off course - which is easy to do on any headphone. reasonable results can be had by most any quality phone if you take the time to "learn" them by A/Bing. 770's would be pretty tough to mix on though. Lot's of bass - lack of low mids. But by referencing your mix who knows ..... they might work anyway.

The reason that studios monitors don't sound similar to the Pro 750 to you might be because you are not accustomed to the sound / sound stage of the Pro 750. I have a sense that you will not believe what I'm writing here but I will go ahead and tell you that, in a sense, there is actually what you might call a "hearing burn-in" or maybe a "brain burn-in" with the Pro 750. When some people put them on for the first time, especially after listening to traditional (non-Ultrasone) headphones for an extended period, or if they've never heard the Pro 750 before, they think the Pro 750's sound bad in some way. This is probably one of the reasons that some people hate them. Their brain and / or hearing never fully "adjusts" to the sound and sound stage of the Pro 750's.
As I indicated previously I don't expect you to believe this. I'm definitely not the only one who knows of this. A very immediate example would be member, Covenant who in a recent post wrote:

[size=xx-small]"I havent had a chance to listen to the Pro 750's all this week, so the only music i've been getting have been via my PMX200's on the train.

So friday night, i sit down and put the Ultrasones on... and they sound bad, hollow, distant. What I think? Check that the cable is screwed on properly, check that Foobar is still using ASIO as output, adjust the headphone position.. no real change.

20mins later, my ears have 'remembered' the sound, and it sounds beautiful again. Its really very odd how these headphones can do this, the presentation is just so markedly different from regular headphones that it doesnt audially make "sense" when you're accustomed to regular non-angled drivers.

So I must reiterate - to get a taste of Ultrasone, you need to burn in. Your ears, that is, not just the headphones."[/size]

So, what I'm saying is that the possible reason you don't hear the similarity is because your hearing has possibly not fully adjusted to the sound of the Pro 750. On the other hand, maybe you can hear them "completely" and you simply think that they don't sound similar to studio monitors. I really don't know.
Let me make sure you understand what I mean. I'm not saying the Pro 750's sound exactly like studio monitors. What I'm saying is that they sound more similar to studio monitors than any other headphone I've ever heard. Do you understand the difference here?
I don't know the exact models of the monitors but I remember they were JBL's.
I agree with your assessment of mixing with the DT 770's. I too find them to be "bassy" (I find them to be slightly bassy as compared to the original source). Actually, I could understand why the DT 770 would be a very relaxing headphone because of that slightly "bassy" sound, kind of like Bing Crosby's voice or something.

However, because of this slightly "bassy" sound (low frequency exaggeration), I am in agreement with you in that I would think they would not be accurate enough for mixing.

 

[mattyb]

Hey guys,

what about this?

MIXERS / POWERED MIXERS - UB SERIES MIXERS - EURORACK UB502 : Ultra Low-Noise Design 5-Input 2-Bus Mixer

I've been told you can use that as a decent headphone preamp instead of a proper amplifier? Bare in mind, I only need something that will power the AKG K240 studio headphones (55ohms ones.) It is very important that the sound does not change and lose quality from the original x-fi processing/filtering.

Would this do the job? as I understand it just basically routes/monitors all the analogue signals together. Would this be a more viable option as opposed to a headphone amp?

Someone here also suggested this:

Behringer | AMP800 - MINIAMP Compact 4-Channel | MINI AMP AMP800

Could this be a better alternative?

I'm actually starting to think that I might just use my old pc after I upgrade (Athlon 3500+ 1 gig of ram) and throw a dedicated M-Audio Audiophile 192 PCI Sound card in that, and possibly hook up the Behringer UB502 to both computers to route the audio and use the AKG K240 Studio headphones through the mixer.

What do you guys think?

All I need is for my headphones to sound loud enough, and to NOT lose audio quality! Thanks.

Matty B.

 

[Peter Pinna]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mattyb /img/forum/go_quote.gif Hey guys, what about this? MIXERS / POWERED MIXERS - UB SERIES MIXERS - EURORACK UB502 : Ultra Low-Noise Design 5-Input 2-Bus Mixer I've been told you can use that as a decent headphone preamp instead of a proper amplifier? Bare in mind, I only need something that will power the AKG K240 studio headphones (55ohms ones.) It is very important that the sound does not change and lose quality from the original x-fi processing/filtering. Would this do the job? as I understand it just basically routes/monitors all the analogue signals together. Would this be a more viable option as opposed to a headphone amp? Someone here also suggested this: Behringer | AMP800 - MINIAMP Compact 4-Channel | MINI AMP AMP800 Could this be a better alternative? I'm actually starting to think that I might just use my old pc after I upgrade (Athlon 3500+ 1 gig of ram) and throw a dedicated M-Audio Audiophile 192 PCI Sound card in that, and possibly hook up the Behringer UB502 to both computers to route the audio and use the AKG K240 Studio headphones through the mixer. What do you guys think? All I need is for my headphones to sound loud enough, and to NOT lose audio quality! Thanks. Matty B.

Hi Matty,
It was I who suggested the Behringer Amp 800. To the best of my memory, I have not heard the "UB-502" mixer you mentioned in your most recent post, so I could not comment on it's performance or compare it.
I can tell you that I have listened to the Behringer Amp 800 for hours at a time while preparing documents on my computer. It has never lost audio quality.
My understanding is that there is a Behringer Headphone Amp that is stronger than the Amp 800. On that website link I sent you, I think another more expensive Behringer Headphone Amp is listed, if you want to check it.
I mention this because of your mentioning the idea that you need to make sure your headphones are "loud enough". I can tell you from my experience that the Behringer Amp 800 is more than loud enough for my purposes. But, whether or not that would also be true for your purposes is unknown until you try it.
From what I've come to understand, the M-Audio gear is excellent.

 

[Seidhepriest]

Again, no headphones will replace monitor speakers... Headphones usually show better detail, but that's exactly the trap - a "headphone mix" may be lacking detail played through speakers. Plus, a long mixing session in headphones can be very fatiguing - not only because of clamping, but also because of the mental stress of a hard-panned stereo image. Plus there's the other trap - that of boosting volume while mixing in headphones, then suddenly noticing a slight deafness after headphones are removed. That can be really unhealthy.

So the piece of advice is - get a cheap pair of small, good nearfield monitor speakers. There ought to be some used stuff for sale in the musician community wherever you live. Even new, boxed small monitor speakers can sell for slightly less than $100.

This brings the second part of advice - headphones are usually quite good for tracking and monitoring, but not-so-great for mixing. Some people have it the other way around (closed primary, open secondary), but semi-open and open headphones are usually good for recording when there's no live microphone feed, and a backup set of closed headphones is for when there's a microphone take (vocals or acoustic instruments).

 

[mattyb]

Well.. I still continued to do some more research.. and I've now FINALLY decided, that I'm going to purchase an Auzentech Prelude X-Fi 7.1 PCI Sound Card for the new pc (Much higher quality DACs and components in comparison to the Creative X-Fi line, and still performs just as good in games.)

For the headphones, I have decided to purchase the Beyerdynamic DT880's as everyone has absolutely raved about them, and the site I'm going to get them from has a personal "Recommendation" for the said product.

And for the headphone amp, I'm going to get the Meier Audio Corda Arietta.

I'm also going to pickup an M-audio oxygen 49 Keyboard as well to help with my producing

I'm so sick of drawing midi notes with the damn mouse! hah.

I managed to chop and change a few things, which ultimately increased my budget a bit more so that I could afford a headphone amp and a more high-end set of headphones.

Thanks for all the help guys! and I really cannot WAIT until I get my new PC with all this gear

its going to kick so much ass!

Thanks again everyone! each and every one of you are a major credit to this forum - keep it up!

And If anyone would like to listen to some of my tunes, you can do so here: Http://www.myspace.com/djnebulous

I'm sure everyone here will pick out a lot of mixing errors no doubt with their high-end headphones heh, but these were made with no proper equipment whatsoever, so go easy.

That will now change however!

Take care,

Matty B.

 

[Wilashort]

Very good choice in the headphones and amp, a very big bang for the buck, specially the amp.
Quote:

Originally Posted by mattyb /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well.. I still continued to do some more research.. and I've now FINALLY decided, that I'm going to purchase an Auzentech Prelude X-Fi 7.1 PCI Sound Card for the new pc (Much higher quality DACs and components in comparison to the Creative X-Fi line, and still performs just as good in games.) For the headphones, I have decided to purchase the Beyerdynamic DT880's as everyone has absolutely raved about them, and the site I'm going to get them from has a personal "Recommendation" for the said product. And for the headphone amp, I'm going to get the Meier Audio Corda Arietta. I'm also going to pickup an M-audio oxygen 49 Keyboard as well to help with my producing I'm so sick of drawing midi notes with the damn mouse! hah. I managed to chop and change a few things, which ultimately increased my budget a bit more so that I could afford a headphone amp and a more high-end set of headphones. Thanks for all the help guys! and I really cannot WAIT until I get my new PC with all this gear its going to kick so much ass! Thanks again everyone! each and every one of you are a major credit to this forum - keep it up! And If anyone would like to listen to some of my tunes, you can do so here: Http://www.myspace.com/djnebulous I'm sure everyone here will pick out a lot of mixing errors no doubt with their high-end headphones heh, but these were made with no proper equipment whatsoever, so go easy. That will now change however! Take care, Matty B.