Where Should I Adjust Volume in this Signal Chain?

[blinkstar]

So I have an Auzentech Prelude soundcard with 5.1 analog out to my full-sized Denon receiver/amp (D2000 headphones connected to the Denon's headphone out jack).
 
That leaves me with three possible places in the signal chain to adjust volume.
 
A: The source, that being whatever game or music track I'm listening to
 
B: The soundcard's control panel, and
 
C: The volume dial on the Denon receiver.
 
Any thoughts on where to set any of those in particular?
 
EDIT: On second thought I should have said "set" rather than "adjust"--in other words, what should the settings for all three of those links be set?

 

[Roller]

Always at the end of the sound chain, which is your particular case is on the Denon receiver. Anywhere else will degrade the signal.

 

[blinkstar]

Quote:

So I have an Auzentech Prelude soundcard with 5.1 analog out to my full-sized Denon receiver/amp (D2000 headphones connected to the Denon's headphone out jack).
 
That leaves me with three possible places in the signal chain to adjust volume.
 
A: The source, that being whatever game or music track I'm listening to
 
B: The soundcard's control panel, and
 
C: The volume dial on the Denon receiver.
 
Any thoughts on where to set any of those in particular?

Thanks for responding, Roller!
 
So, you're saying that I should only turn the volume up on the receiver end?
 
Then where should the default settings for the source and the soundcard be set? Three-quarters of the way? Half? Etc.
 
Thanks again!

 

[Roller]

Quote:

Thanks for responding, Roller!
 
So, you're saying that I should only turn the volume up on the receiver end?
 
Then where should the default settings for the source and the soundcard be set? Three-quarters of the way? Half? Etc.
 
Thanks again!

I'm glad to help.
 
You should indeed only adjust volume on the receiver. All early stages of the chain should be unattenuated, meaning full volume. Your gear isn't likely to enter clipping, and you certainly should have full volume on software side.
 
Some people might disagree with analog volume control, but when digital volume is attenuated, there is a reduction of dynamic range, which I personally find unacceptable.

 

[blinkstar]

Roller, that is how I thought it should be set up, but I swear I DO hear clipping (a kind of crackling at the end of heavy bass notes) when I have it set up like that. If I set the volume lower either through the source or through the soundcard's control panel, the crackling goes away ...

 

[obobskivich]

The Prelude puts out 5Vrms at 100% - that will clip most devices. Run it around 50-60% if you're using the analog output, lower if this Denon receiver is super sensitive (some receivers are). Also, depending on the abilities of this Denon, I'd probably not rely on the 5.1 analog - the Denon may do a better job handling the signal if you let the Prelude send it out via DTS/Dolby (it really depends on what you're doing and what the Denon can do). Alternately, if you feed the digital signal out, you can run it at 100%, because the Denon will be seeing it's own internal gain structure and not clip as a result. 
 
Leave software volume controls (like Windows Media Player or the Master Volume slider in games) at 100% or wherever you normally would (obviously don't max out every audio slider in the game). 
 
As far as signal degradation, basically a non-issue. The digital controls on your PC are just attenuating from FS, which won't hurt anything but hypothetical fidelity. And dropping one or two bits down from 24 (which you don't have anyways) or a few dB down from 120 (which is no big deal anyways) to get out of clipping (which is a big deal) is not even something I would debate. Cut the signal. 
 
 

 

[Roller]

Quote:

Roller, that is how I thought it should be set up, but I swear I DO hear clipping (a kind of crackling at the end of heavy bass notes) when I have it set up like that. If I set the volume lower either through the source or through the soundcard's control panel, the crackling goes away ...

 
Then that is because something earlier in your chain is clipping. Lets leave games/audio player volume maxed out and out of the equation, and do adjustments on the Prelude volume. Try 5 or 10% steps at most. Ideally you wouldn't drop the volume below 80%.


Quote:

The Prelude puts out 5Vrms at 100% - that will clip most devices. Run it around 50-60% if you're using the analog output, lower if this Denon receiver is super sensitive (some receivers are). Also, depending on the abilities of this Denon, I'd probably not rely on the 5.1 analog - the Denon may do a better job handling the signal if you let the Prelude send it out via DTS/Dolby (it really depends on what you're doing and what the Denon can do). Alternately, if you feed the digital signal out, you can run it at 100%, because the Denon will be seeing it's own internal gain structure and not clip as a result. 
 
Leave software volume controls (like Windows Media Player or the Master Volume slider in games) at 100% or wherever you normally would (obviously don't max out every audio slider in the game). 
 
As far as signal degradation, basically a non-issue. The digital controls on your PC are just attenuating from FS, which won't hurt anything but hypothetical fidelity. And dropping one or two bits down from 24 (which you don't have anyways) or a few dB down from 120 (which is no big deal anyways) to get out of clipping (which is a big deal) is not even something I would debate. Cut the signal. 
 
 

Well, there have been higher losses than 1 or 2 bits, up to 4-6, which is already significant in my personal opinion.
 
As long as the output doesn't clip, it should be as high as it can get. There is no need to lower the dynamic range if as much of it can be had.

 

[StratocasterMan]

Blinkstar, I'm glad you started this discussion, because I had the same question. Lately I've been listening to a lot of music streaming on Spotify. Although I realize the source files streaming on Spotify aren't of the highest possible quality, I have found the vast catalog to be irresistible. I recently purchased a FiiO E17 Alpen DAC / amp that I am running off a USB port on my laptop which is running Windows Vista. I have everything set for 24 bit 96000 Hz and use the FiiO E17 to drive my headphones. Now that I have the E17, I have found music on Spotify to sound quite good considering that I can access literally millions of tracks that I don't have in my personal collection.
 
With this combination, I was finding three places to adjust the volume via software. One was in the Windows sound contol panel where the FiiO E17 shows up as "SPDIF Interface," the second was with the volume slider in the Spotify window, and the third was with the Windows volume slider located at the speaker icon in the bottom right corner of my screen. I had not realized until now that the first and the third are one and the same. Whatever changes I make in the Windows control panel or with the speaker icon at the lower right of my screen are reflected in the other place. So really there are only two software controls. The one in the Spotify window and the Windows "master volume" control. Based on the responses here, it would seem it is best to leave the slider in the Spotify window at maximum volume and make any software volume adjustments by using the Windows master volume control.
 
This brings me to the last piece of the puzzle, which is the FiiO E17 itself. It has volume buttons I can use to control the volume. It also has three possible gain settings. These are 0dB, 6dB, and 12dB. The headphones I am using don't really require much power to drive. Even on the 0dB gain setting, I can easily drive them louder than I can stand, although of course I have to set the volume higher than if I use the 6dB gain setting. This leads me to other questions. Should I always use the lower gain setting of 0dB since it is able to provide more volume than I can use? Would I ever want to use the higher 6bB gain setting with these headphones considering that even the 0dB gain setting can drive them louder than I want? Would the higher 6dB gain setting possibly provide better quality sound by providing more power even though I am just leaving the volume set lower when I use the higher gain setting?
 
For now, it seems the theoretical best answer to my own questions is to leave the Spotify volume slider set at maximum, leave the Windows master volume set at maximum, and use the E17 volume control to set the ultimate volume, although I'm still not sure whether to use the 0dB or the 6dB gain setting. In practice what I'm doing is leaving Spotify set at maximum volume and the E17 set for more volume than I really want. Then I'm using the Windows master volume to set my actual listening level. I find it much more convenient to be able to control my listening level right from my computer rather than having to reach for the E17 and use the physical volume buttons on it. I guess in theory I might not be obtaining the best possible sound this way, because I'm not maxing out the Windows master volume before the signal reaches the E17. I'm going to have to experiment to see if I can hear any difference between using the Windows master volume at less than 100%, or setting it at 100% and using only the E17 to control the final listening level. Right now, I don't think I can hear a difference.
 
Anyway, thanks for bringing up the topic, because I had been wondering about these issues and it led me to discover that the volume control I see in the Windows control panel and the volume control I see at the speaker icon at the lower right corner of my screen are one and the same.

 

[wilky61]

I cannot tell you why, StratocasterMan, but regarding the gain setting on your E17, the conventional wisdom that I have always read here on Head-Fi is to choose the lowest gain setting that still maxes out the sound of your headphones. So if your headphones are capable of being driven on the 0dB gain setting (with a higher volume setting), then go for it.
 
Personally, I have Foobar's volume set to maximum (you use Spotify instead of Foobar), I have my Windows master volume set to maximum, I have my E17's gain set to 12dB (my Q701s aren't the easiest to drive), and I typically will set the volume between 24-32ish depending on the track (sometimes as high as 45).
 
Maybe I should experiment with the 6dB gain setting and the upper range of the E17's volume slider, though... hmm...
 
Quote:

This brings me to the last piece of the puzzle, which is the FiiO E17 itself. It has volume buttons I can use to control the volume. It also has three possible gain settings. These are 0dB, 6dB, and 12dB. The headphones I am using don't really require much power to drive. Even on the 0dB gain setting, I can easily drive them louder than I can stand, although of course I have to set the volume higher than if I use the 6dB gain setting. This leads me to other questions. Should I always use the lower gain setting of 0dB since it is able to provide more volume than I can use? Would I ever want to use the higher 6bB gain setting with these headphones considering that even the 0dB gain setting can drive them louder than I want? Would the higher 6dB gain setting possibly provide better quality sound by providing more power even though I am just leaving the volume set lower when I use the higher gain setting?
 
For now, it seems the theoretical best answer to my own questions is to leave the Spotify volume slider set at maximum, leave the Windows master volume set at maximum, and use the E17 volume control to set the ultimate volume, although I'm still not sure whether to use the 0dB or the 6dB gain setting. In practice what I'm doing is leaving Spotify set at maximum volume and the E17 set for more volume than I really want. Then I'm using the Windows master volume to set my actual listening level. I find it much more convenient to be able to control my listening level right from my computer rather than having to reach for the E17 and use the physical volume buttons on it. I guess in theory I might not be obtaining the best possible sound this way, because I'm not maxing out the Windows master volume before the signal reaches the E17. I'm going to have to experiment to see if I can hear any difference between using the Windows master volume at less than 100%, or setting it at 100% and using only the E17 to control the final listening level. Right now, I don't think I can hear a difference.
 
Anyway, thanks for bringing up the topic, because I had been wondering about these issues and it led me to discover that the volume control I see in the Windows control panel and the volume control I see at the speaker icon at the lower right corner of my screen are one and the same.

 

 

[blinkstar]

Quote:

The Prelude puts out 5Vrms at 100% - that will clip most devices. Run it around 50-60% if you're using the analog output, lower if this Denon receiver is super sensitive (some receivers are). Also, depending on the abilities of this Denon, I'd probably not rely on the 5.1 analog - the Denon may do a better job handling the signal if you let the Prelude send it out via DTS/Dolby (it really depends on what you're doing and what the Denon can do). Alternately, if you feed the digital signal out, you can run it at 100%, because the Denon will be seeing it's own internal gain structure and not clip as a result. 
 
Leave software volume controls (like Windows Media Player or the Master Volume slider in games) at 100% or wherever you normally would (obviously don't max out every audio slider in the game). 
 
As far as signal degradation, basically a non-issue. The digital controls on your PC are just attenuating from FS, which won't hurt anything but hypothetical fidelity. And dropping one or two bits down from 24 (which you don't have anyways) or a few dB down from 120 (which is no big deal anyways) to get out of clipping (which is a big deal) is not even something I would debate. Cut the signal. 
 
 

Thanks for such a detailed and thorough response, obobskivich!
 
Last night, before I read your post, I played a war game for about an hour with the volume maxed on the Prelude's control panel. When there was a loud explosion or gunshot I could hear the kind of faint crackling/"scratchy" sound on the bass notes that I assume to be clipping ...
 
Could I have damaged my headphones by doing this? How would I know if I had?
 
EDIT: I meant to thank Roller for his detailed response as well, and thanks to all of you who have weighed in!

 

[obobskivich]

Clipping doesn't exactly have to work this way. You can have an output that's running perfectly linear, and not clipping, but is just too hot for a sink. That sink will then clip it's output, because you're demanding more than it can offer. The Prelude is notorious for doing this to devices - 5V is way too much. 
 
As far as the "Bits thing" -
 
24-bit audio is a myth. It cannot exist. And hardware has been able to do 16-bit audio since at least the early 1990s with no problem. Therefore you aren't losing any resolution by lowering the output volume slightly (The SNR will drop a few points but it's irrelevant, is my point).
 
Dynamic range is something else, and with modern media there isn't a whole lot of dynamic range to begin with. Again, this hasn't really been a problem since before the time of VHS Hi-Fi. You aren't sacrificing anything here, at least in terms of "can this be measured and heard" - you can "feel" that it's worse, but the bottom line is a heavily clipped signal sounds worse than ANY audiophile-qualified "unpure" signal; it also risks damage to the headphones.
Quote:

 
Then that is because something earlier in your chain is clipping. Lets leave games/audio player volume maxed out and out of the equation, and do adjustments on the Prelude volume. Try 5 or 10% steps at most. Ideally you wouldn't drop the volume below 80%.


Well, there have been higher losses than 1 or 2 bits, up to 4-6, which is already significant in my personal opinion.
 
As long as the output doesn't clip, it should be as high as it can get. There is no need to lower the dynamic range if as much of it can be had.

The destruction of drivers through clipping is a serious problem, I would entirely caution you to turn the Prelude down. Whatever gains you may believe to exist by running everything at 100% ("for maximum fidelity"), you will negate by listening to a clipped signal and risking damage to the drivers. If, when you turn the signal down, there's no more bad sounds, it's probably alright. If the cans sound "wrong" in a big way, it's possible you damaged them. I don't know of any speaker/headphone maker that will cover damage from over-driving in their warranty, except perhaps Koss.


Quote:

Thanks for such a detailed and thorough response, obobskivich!
 
Last night, before I read your post, I played a war game for about an hour with the volume maxed on the Prelude's control panel. When there was a loud explosion or gunshot I could hear the kind of faint crackling/"scratchy" sound on the bass notes that I assume to be clipping ...
 
Could I have damaged my headphones by doing this? How would I know if I had?
 
EDIT: I meant to thank Roller for his detailed response as well, and thanks to all of you who have weighed in!

 

 

[blinkstar]

Quote:

Clipping doesn't exactly have to work this way. You can have an output that's running perfectly linear, and not clipping, but is just too hot for a sink. That sink will then clip it's output, because you're demanding more than it can offer. The Prelude is notorious for doing this to devices - 5V is way too much. 
 
As far as the "Bits thing" -
 
24-bit audio is a myth. It cannot exist. And hardware has been able to do 16-bit audio since at least the early 1990s with no problem. Therefore you aren't losing any resolution by lowering the output volume slightly (The SNR will drop a few points but it's irrelevant, is my point).
 
Dynamic range is something else, and with modern media there isn't a whole lot of dynamic range to begin with. Again, this hasn't really been a problem since before the time of VHS Hi-Fi. You aren't sacrificing anything here, at least in terms of "can this be measured and heard" - you can "feel" that it's worse, but the bottom line is a heavily clipped signal sounds worse than ANY audiophile-qualified "unpure" signal; it also risks damage to the headphones.


The destruction of drivers through clipping is a serious problem, I would entirely caution you to turn the Prelude down. Whatever gains you may believe to exist by running everything at 100% ("for maximum fidelity"), you will negate by listening to a clipped signal and risking damage to the drivers. If, when you turn the signal down, there's no more bad sounds, it's probably alright. If the cans sound "wrong" in a big way, it's possible you damaged them. I don't know of any speaker/headphone maker that will cover damage from over-driving in their warranty, except perhaps Koss.


 

I had the Prelude turned down prior to this thread because I thought it sounded better that way, and believe me, I have it turned down now and WILL keep it that way. I just can't believe this ... I read glowing reviews for the Prelude as a gaming card, and I searched and searched for one and finally found it on ebay ... and now I find out that it can destroy my headphones? It always seems like there is some critical bit of information that gets left out or overlooked in so many reviews, whether on the consumer or "professional" level ... and I always find out about this or that critical flaw well after it's too late ...
 
The Denon's do sound fine after I turned the Prelude down, so hopefully no damage done there ... on some youtube songs, I still hear distortion with the bass but that may be a problem with the recording, not my end, I'm not sure.
 
More questions:
 
Do I have to worry about the volume on the receiver too? I don't have it maxed by any means but is there any rule of thumb for setting the receiver's volume? Is it enough just to listen for clipping and set the volume below that level?
 
If I attach a different amp directly to the Prelude--I'm thinking of picking up the O2 headphone amp--will that negate the danger or is it still the same?
 
And finally, can you recommend a different gaming-oriented sound card? I'm thinking of picking up either the Xonar DG or DS just because they're cheap and I have to get a PCI card (no free PCI-E slots).
 
Thanks for your time!

 

[obobskivich]

The Prelude isn't "dangerous" - it just has a fairly robust line output. I'm not sure what Auzen's exact reasoning was, but my guess is that it's probably to allow it to handle a very wide range of loads (from headphones to AV receivers). As long as you turn it down a bit, there's no problem - wouldn't bother replacing it at all. Again, there's no risk. If the level is below whatever causes clipping (and it may not be 50-60% for your receiver, it may be higher, or lower), you're fine. No critical flaws. The Prelude is a very good card. Most amps will prefer it set to that 50-60% range (this is based on my experience though, I'm sure there's more sensitive and less sensitive amps out there, I just haven't hit upon them) - my general rule of thumb with sound cards is to start at around 50%, and turn it up until you get a level you like and/or you hear clipping. Then back it off. As long as you don't ride the thing into clipping constantly there's no danger to any equipment. 
 
As far as the volume level on the receiver, that's more about keeping your ears safe. Don't turn it up so loud that you hurt your ears. The headphones will take a lot more power than your ears will take SPLs. The reason you were getting clipping was simply because the Prelude was running too hot for the Denon's input section; not because of anything at fault. To put the Denon into clipping or break your headphones with it, you'd have to turn it up to an absurd level; you'd be in physical pain well before this level (if memory serves the Denon HPs are like 106 dB/mW and take like 2000mW/side). My honest guess is that the Denon receiver can probably put out enough power to blow the headphones apart and then some. You may never actually be able to make the receiver (by itself) push into clipping (e.g. setting it to a digital input or AM/FM and cranking it up to 11). 
 
I'd say YouTube is a bad source for testing for damage - try something from your PC that you know isn't distorted to begin with. It's unlikely that you did damage here (again, the Denon HPs are pretty robust), you were probably just at the onset of clipping. Some receivers/amplifiers have a "PEAK" or "CLIP" light that will turn on - does your Denon have such a feature? This would be helpful in figuring out the ideal level for the Prelude's output (I'm unaware of how the on-screen volume level correlates to Vrms). It isn't required though. Again, as long as you don't hear clipping, it's doing what it should be doing. 
 
 
 
 
 
 

 

[Roller]

Quote:

Clipping doesn't exactly have to work this way. You can have an output that's running perfectly linear, and not clipping, but is just too hot for a sink. That sink will then clip it's output, because you're demanding more than it can offer. The Prelude is notorious for doing this to devices - 5V is way too much. 
 
As far as the "Bits thing" -
 
24-bit audio is a myth. It cannot exist. And hardware has been able to do 16-bit audio since at least the early 1990s with no problem. Therefore you aren't losing any resolution by lowering the output volume slightly (The SNR will drop a few points but it's irrelevant, is my point).
 
Dynamic range is something else, and with modern media there isn't a whole lot of dynamic range to begin with. Again, this hasn't really been a problem since before the time of VHS Hi-Fi. You aren't sacrificing anything here, at least in terms of "can this be measured and heard" - you can "feel" that it's worse, but the bottom line is a heavily clipped signal sounds worse than ANY audiophile-qualified "unpure" signal; it also risks damage to the headphones.


The destruction of drivers through clipping is a serious problem, I would entirely caution you to turn the Prelude down. Whatever gains you may believe to exist by running everything at 100% ("for maximum fidelity"), you will negate by listening to a clipped signal and risking damage to the drivers. If, when you turn the signal down, there's no more bad sounds, it's probably alright. If the cans sound "wrong" in a big way, it's possible you damaged them. I don't know of any speaker/headphone maker that will cover damage from over-driving in their warranty, except perhaps Koss.

 
Despite you believe or not if it exists, it is a reality, even if it doesn't reach perfect 24bits resolution. But let's leave the myth discussion out of here or it will lead to more arguing than it is allowed here.
 
Like obobskivich said, having continued listening when there is clipping can eventually damage the drivers, which is why fixing clipping the moment it happens is a sensible choice.
 
The Prelude is a great card for gaming, levels just have to be in check in order to avoid clipping, therefore avoiding potential hardware damage.
 
The 50% base volume is something that predates modern OSes, namely having started with Windows 2000 and XP, has they handled attenuation in a different way than what Vista and 7 do. So, considering Vista or 7 is being used, and that clipping occurs at 100%, then volume shouldn't drop below 80%, or be as close to it (in this case, to 100%) as possible. The end result will be of higher quality this way.
 
And I certainly agree that Youtube is an awful place to do proper audio tests. Using local files of high quality (less compressed and of high resolution if possible) is a much better option.
 
About soundcards for gaming, the Xonar DG and DS are toys (even the Essence STX is a toy, mind you), due to the lack of the full gaming feature set (from hardware OpenAL to in-game EAX, as well as DirectSound3D and the proprietary algorithms of the DSP chip, which are audio renderer agnostic). You want to go with a soundcard that has a X-Fi DSP chip, which includes all Creative X-Fi cards (except XtremeAudio as it lacks the DSP chip, making it a fake X-Fi), and a few 3rd party cards. But overall, the currently best soundcard you can get for gaming is the Creative X-Fi Titanium HD.
In all honesty, if you don't have a free PCIe slot, you should just keep your Prelude, as it is a very capable soundcard in terms of gaming, and at least on the same level as adequate PCI replacements. When you have the possibility to get a PCIe card, just get the Creative X-Fi Titanium HD and give it no further though.

 

[blinkstar]

obobskivich and Roller ... Thanks so much for all the great information! I really appreciate it.
 
I'm kind of fixated on the whole clipping thing now--did I do some damage to my headphones by playing a game where explosions and gunshots sounded clipped? I keep listening to old mp3s I have on my PC and I feel like I can hear some level of distortion at different times in almost all of them ... But aren't the Denon's supposed to be very revealing of poor source material? And the thing is--I didn't listen to those same songs with the Denon's previously, so I can't say if they sound any different now ... And when I try listening with a different pair of headphones--Samson SR850s, for instance--I can still hear the same sorts of distortion ... I wish I had a recording that I knew was perfect to test the Denon's with, but I don't ...
 
There isn't anything I can download to test for clipping, is there?