[pjones5]

Hey everybody, I'm new to the audiophile market and I have so many questions. I purchased AKG K371s and K553s - my original plan was to buy both and return the pair I liked less. Then I found that I actually really enjoyed both and corona happened, so I think I might just keep them. I've got a FiiO BTR5 coming in the mail to satisfy my dire need for a better DAC (I'm using primarily my iPhone 8 and iMac - iMac sound output isn't horrible, but I do think it could be significantly better). I'm not a huge file hog, I haven't been collecting songs in FLAC or WAV for years. I primarily stream from Spotify, though I have just begun a 3-month free subscription to Tidal (which I'm already enjoying immensely). At this point in the game, I've reached that first initial benchmark of acquiring good files, DAC/amp combo, and a decent pair of headphones. So, I'm going to settle in and start saving for that next upgrade(s) - problem is, I don't know what direction to take!

I've been looking a ton into potential DAPs to get. I don't fully understand how the power output/impedance math works though so I'm not sure what a DAP would even be able to power. I'm not a huge fan of IEMs - nothing wrong with them, I just like the full headphone experience. From what I've looked at, I'm really looking at the Sony Walkman NW-ZX507 or NW-WM1A - for those of you who have experience with one or the other - what do you think? I realize these are a little more mainstream than, say, the FiiO M11 or HiBy R6 and a few others, and more expensive, but I keep getting drawn back to either of these two choices. Thoughts?

Next headphone upgrade might either be the Sennheiser HD650 or Sony MDR-Z7M2. I like the HD650s a lot, but my hesitancy is with the high impedance they have. I like portability. Plus, getting those would mean that I would have to get a designated amp as well. I don't know if any old DAP would be able to support the HD650s.

I've spent more time than I care to admit reading and researching on all of this. There appears to be just such a high degree of personal taste in all of this. Suffice to say, these purchases would be down the line (as I need to save for them) so any guidance now would be greatly appreciated!

 

[CoryGillmore]

Welcome! The Z7M2 is a fantastic can and you'll love it. Though it is a poor choice for portable use. If portablility if important to you I would suggest its cheaper younger brother: the MDR-1AM2. I use it daily for work, it's comfortable, light and can be powered by a potato, though the ZX507 or WM1A will really make it sing. I'm a huge Sony fan (just look at my signature).

 

[pjones5]

Welcome! The Z7M2 is a fantastic can and you'll love it. Though it is a poor choice for portable use. If portablility if important to you I would suggest its cheaper younger brother: the MDR-1AM2. I use it daily for work, it's comfortable, light and can be powered by a potato, though the ZX507 or WM1A will really make it sing. I'm a huge Sony fan (just look at my signature).

Ha! Love the signature. What’r your personal sound tastes?
I’m also a big fan of Sony’s. What actually kicked off my splurge into the realm of studio quality equipment was my Sony WH-H900N giving out in the mid-ranges. Decided instead of spending $$ on some mass market headphone that had a ton of features, albeit, but “meh“ sound quality, I’d try out some studio headphones. And so my journey began!

Have you used either of those Sony DAPs?

(edit) I’ve also considered just getting a really good USB-DAC (perhaps also one made by Sony) seeing as how most my listening is through streaming services. There’s something about a dedicated DAP that improves the experience though...

 

[CoryGillmore]

Ha! Love the signature. What’r your personal sound tastes?
I’m also a big fan of Sony’s. What actually kicked off my splurge into the realm of studio quality equipment was my Sony WH-H900N giving out in the mid-ranges. Decided instead of spending $$ on some mass market headphone that had a ton of features, albeit, but “meh“ sound quality, I’d try out some studio headphones. And so my journey began!

Have you used either of those Sony DAPs?

(edit) I’ve also considered just getting a really good USB-DAC (perhaps also one made by Sony) seeing as how most my listening is through streaming services. There’s something about a dedicated DAP that improves the experience though...

I own the ZX300 and use it often. The ZX500 is basically a ZX300 with Android and internet features. The battery life suffers greatly because of it too. The ZX300/500 also have USB DAC functionality. Though if you want one of the best Sony has to offer in regards to desktop amp/DAC all in ones, look into the TA-ZH1ES, I think that's what it's called.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

I've been looking a ton into potential DAPs to get.

If you're coming from an iPhone and a Mac with a fuly worked out software ecosystem with only one hardware vendor who also makes the software that DAP is more likely to feel like a total PITA to use.

I don't fully understand how the power output/impedance math works though...

First problem is that the power-load impedance relationship is much more complex that you can't just take a few specs pus the output at one impedance load value and easily hash it out. You can't even just be sure it would be accurate on speakers amps that only work with 4ohms to 8ohms normally (a few outside the range), how much more a headphone amp circuit that has to work with an 8ohm to 600ohm range.

...so I'm not sure what a DAP would even be able to power.

Even that has a wide range since some DAPs can do 25mW at 32ohms and some with swappable amp modules in case you don't need battery life that much might do 150mW at 32ohms.

From what I've looked at, I'm really looking at the Sony Walkman NW-ZX507 or NW-WM1A - for those of you who have experience with one or the other - what do you think? I realize these are a little more mainstream than, say, the FiiO M11 or HiBy R6 and a few others, and more expensive, but I keep getting drawn back to either of these two choices. Thoughts?

I'd worry more about how much you might end up wanting to throw any of those bricks at the wall because they don't work as smoothly as Apple products used with each other.

Next headphone upgrade might either be the Sennheiser HD650 or Sony MDR-Z7M2. I like the HD650s a lot, but my hesitancy is with the high impedance they have. I like portability. Plus, getting those would mean that I would have to get a designated amp as well. I don't know if any old DAP would be able to support the HD650s.

I'd be way more worried about how all those holes on the back of the HD650 earcups being the biggest reason why they're a horrible idea for portable use. And then past that is how to get 256mW at 300ohms without using a separate amplifier.

That said just because a lower impedance headphone has lower impedance doesn't mean it's automatically a better choice. If its sensitivity is too low then it won't matter much that its impedance is or close to 32ohms if it means it needs more power anyway.

In short try to find a headphone with around 32ohms impedance, 97dB/1mW sensitivity.

 

[pjones5]

If you're coming from an iPhone and a Mac with a fuly worked out software ecosystem with only one hardware vendor who also makes the software that DAP is more likely to feel like a total PITA to use.




First problem is that the power-load impedance relationship is much more complex that you can't just take a few specs pus the output at one impedance load value and easily hash it out. You can't even just be sure it would be accurate on speakers amps that only work with 4ohms to 8ohms normally (a few outside the range), how much more a headphone amp circuit that has to work with an 8ohm to 600ohm range.




Even that has a wide range since some DAPs can do 25mW at 32ohms and some with swappable amp modules in case you don't need battery life that much might do 150mW at 32ohms.





I'd worry more about how much you might end up wanting to throw any of those bricks at the wall because they don't work as smoothly as Apple products used with each other.




I'd be way more worried about how all those holes on the back of the HD650 earcups being the biggest reason why they're a horrible idea for portable use. And then past that is how to get 256mW at 300ohms without using a separate amplifier.

That said just because a lower impedance headphone has lower impedance doesn't mean it's automatically a better choice. If its sensitivity is too low then it won't matter much that its impedance is or close to 32ohms if it means it needs more power anyway.

In short try to find a headphone with around 32ohms impedance, 97dB/1mW sensitivity.

You’ve given me a lot to think about. Software bugs are a concern for mine being that I have become so comfortable with Apple products. Is there a DAC/amp combo that you would recommend? You raise a good point with the open-back nature of the HD650s. In terms of portability, Im mostly just looking for something that I could use at home or at the office. I wouldn’t be doing any commuting with it. I’m just not sure that I want to get a fully dedicated set-up that’s going to make my listening only happen at home. Bulkier headphones of DAC/amps aren’t necessarily an issue for me, then.

(edit) Can you explain how the sensitivity and all that works? I understand that the higher the better, but then too high will create that hissing, correct?

I guess my question is, and this applies to anybody viewing this thread, what makes each piece of the sound path good? Or, if you don’t feel like answering it, can you point me to some resources?

 

[ProtegeManiac]

You’ve given me a lot to think about. Software bugs are a concern for mine being that I have become so comfortable with Apple products. Is there a DAC/amp combo that you would recommend?

Fiio Q5 Pro if you don't need wall-power kind of power ie a battery or you want lower distortion Class A (note: wall power noise is always a risk vs battery power, that's why ALO and RWA etc sell large battery packs for desktop amps). But even then you have the BTR5 for those two you already have and will work with anything with 99dB/1mW or higher and lower than 120ohms nominal impedance.

Q5 Pro has BT so if USB doesn't work that will, and if you're not using lossless, no problem.

You raise a good point with the open-back nature of the HD650s. In terms of portability, Im mostly just looking for something that I could use at home or at the office. I wouldn’t be doing any commuting with it. I’m just not sure that I want to get a fully dedicated set-up that’s going to make my listening only happen at home. Bulkier headphones of DAC/amps aren’t necessarily an issue for me, then.

If anything one problem with the HD650 is that they don't fold flat so if you perpetually transport them to and from work you'll have to think of what bag you'll do that in.

That said it's not all clear though. Anywhere other than at home with nobody else the open back cups will let in considerably more noise, necessitating more power to go louder and hopefully without upping noise and distortion.

(edit) Can you explain how the sensitivity and all that works?

Sensitivity is xxdB/1mW, or in speakers, xxdB/1W at 1m mic distance. Note though that this has more to do with being as comparable as possible across headphones and speakers, and does not literally mean you're at 93dB at your ear drums (farther out than where the mic would be on headphone measurements) plus the actual gain of the material you're playing and the gain on your amp.

I understand that the higher the better, but then too high will create that hissing, correct?

Generally, yes.

But if you're using an amp with a low enough low gain setting and very low noise floor in the first place, plus low output impedance, then not necessarily.

Even my desktop Meier amp works fine driving my Aurisonics ASG-1.3 (120dB/1mW).

I guess my question is, and this applies to anybody viewing this thread, what makes each piece of the sound path good? Or, if you don’t feel like answering it, can you point me to some resources?

Active electronics : low noise, low distortion, and (for the amp) high output and even output on the potentiometer

Headphones : Flatter response. Past that it depends on what you're willing to get to use with it. I mean sure this is the most important part, and you're not supposed to choose this based on the upstream parts, but you really need to choose the upstream components well. 300ohms might be a safe range for not having damping factor issues, but it's not 2008 anymore and amps have 1ohm or lower output impedance. 96dB/1mW might be a safe range, but hey if a 90dB/1mW headphone measures better then why not just get that and get an amp that kicks out 1watt per channel.

 

[pjones5]

Thanks!!

 

[Redcarmoose]

Obviously the great battery longevity make owning the ZX300 or 1A special. You will find Android based Walkmans will not have great battery life. Most think they sound secondary to the 1A also. In my short testing of the ZX300, I found the 1A to be superior. Also if you check the Walkman thread you’ll find the 1A is still very much a loved and revered product here. Firmware updates have taken the 1A beyond anything anyone ever expected; sounding very close to the $3200 Walkman 1Z. I’m not sure how the synergy will be with your headphones, but I can say the Walkman 1A sounds pretty good with the MDR-Z1R and MDR-Z7. There is always a chance you may like an IEM; which is really the 1A designed purpose.

The only issue I see in your application is your personal preference for music streaming. The 1A was truly designed for file playback, and you will get your best sound that way only. Though the 1A can act as a Bluetooth receiver taking and decoding/amplifying a signal from a phone or tablet/laptop. Obviously the ZX-507 is going to be better for streaming due to the ability to run on Android.

I’m sure you’ll get more posts talking about the compatibility with the AKG K371s and K553. I can say the MDR-Z7 is a pretty good combo, though never heard the MK2 your interested in or HD650 headphone with the 1A.

The other option is to use the 1A as a file sever to a full-size desktop. Meaning the DAP with the full-size headphones works, but is just not optimal. You loose a little damping factor using a DAP for full size headphones which will affect the bass, making it slightly less refined. Also a full size amp will get better soundstage. Strangely though you’ll still find members loving the Walkman DAPs with full size headphones. This results in the fact that tone is actually taking importance over technicality. It’s all about tone color pretty much. Strangely too your even going to find folks gravitating towards a sound which can have fall backs due to equipment mismatch, but love the sound anyway as it’s musical to them. This is why stuff at times doesn’t look good on paper but ends in a sound people like. That’s why listening in person is truly the only way to learn how if something truly is going to work for you or not. 1000 posts in this thread will not be worth a simple in-store demo, or getting equipment home which you can actually return if it’s doesn’t sound right.

 

[pjones5]

Thanks for the advice.

I just got the FiiO BTR5 in the mail yesterday and I really do love it. I think going the portable DAC/amp combo is going to be more applicable to my situation than getting a dedicated DAP. Plus, it’s going to save me a lot money in the long run (assuming I can keep my shopping habits in check).

I did also just order a pair of AKG N40 IEMs. They we’re on sale for $99 with free 2-day shipping, compared to the $400 regular price on the AKG website. They’ll be my first venture into the world of IEMs. I’m hoping they pair well with the BTR5.

I never meant to get three different headphones all with the same brand (AKG), it just sort of happened.

The BTR5 does bring a lot more to the table while using my K371s and K553s though. Enough to where, I‘m no longer wishing I had a better pair of headphones to enjoy my music with. There were two drawbacks I was wrestling with in pairing the BTR5 with my K553s. 1) the K553s have somewhat shallow earpads, so they’re not a pair of headphones that I want to wear for hours on end. I’ve mitigated this by ordering a thicker pair of earpads from Brainwaves (they happened to be 50% so I figured why not). Hopefully that solves that issue. 2) I was disappointed with the BTR5 performance when paired with my iPhone 8. Its not that the BTR5 was bad, but its pretty limited when paired with Apple hardware/software. It performs decently well with my iMac though. To my joy, however, it can be paired with the iPad pro as a USB-DAC device (can you tell I like my Apple products...?) which gives my music a fantastic boost. All of that to say, I’ve reached a point where I find myself telling myself, “settle down”. Its easy for me to get starry eyed at the thought of pairing Sony’s MDR-Z7M2 with the NW-MW1A - which would result in a hefty price-tag. Reality is though, I really don’t need to do that (but do we ever really need to do anything).

If anybody has any DAC/amp suggestions, let me know! As I noted above, right now I’ve got the FiiO BTR5, which is performing quite well, but I’m open to other suggestions both in the portable and non-portable arena.

 

[willywill]

You really don't watch the news, want to drop $1,900 on something you never heard. You just need to look at what you already have and how you going to use it.
The BTR5 has a 2.5mm you better be balanced if not your not getting the best out of it. If you spend alot of time on the IMAC why not try get a desktop amp. A portable DAC/AMP is fine but you have a small dongle for full size headphone. Just wait for the N40 to come and pair it with the BTR5 (Balanced) then get a Schiit/JDS or any amp you want you use with the big headphone.

 

[pjones5]

You really don't watch the news, want to drop $1,900 on something you never heard. You just need to look at what you already have and how you going to use it.
The BTR5 has a 2.5mm you better be balanced if not your not getting the best out of it. If you spend alot of time on the IMAC why not try get a desktop amp. A portable DAC/AMP is fine but you have a small dongle for full size headphone. Just wait for the N40 to come and pair it with the BTR5 (Balanced) then get a Schiit/JDS or any amp you want you use with the big headphone.

I mean, this would be in the future... Also, notice that I said I decided against doing so. It is a lot of money and definitely not the time to spend it.
The N40s are 3.5mm - are you able to get an adapter to fit it to the 2.5mm balanced port? I wasn't sure if that's something that works given the difference in output. Or, do I just get a different cord altogether? If so, what cords do you recommend?

 

[CoryGillmore]

I mean, this would be in the future... Also, notice that I said I decided against doing so. It is a lot of money and definitely not the time to spend it.
The N40s are 3.5mm - are you able to get an adapter to fit it to the 2.5mm balanced port? I wasn't sure if that's something that works given the difference in output. Or, do I just get a different cord altogether? If so, what cords do you recommend?

It would need a different cord altogether. You can adapt a balanced cable to a non-balanced termination but not the other way around. Any Amazon balanced cable will do the trick, asum,ing those AKG IEMs have a removable cable, and if they're normally $400, I would assume they do. Probably MMCX, though you'd want to be absolutely certain. Just start out with a $40ish Amazon cable.

 

[pjones5]

Sweet, thanks for the help!!

 

[josecunyat]

1. Keep the BTR5 for portable and mobile use.
2. Get the Topping DX7 Pro for desktop use.
3. Search for a refined headphone to use. A Beyerdynamic DT1990 would do.
4. Sell the headphones you are not using.
5. Enjoy the rest of your days! ... and thank me later.