Whats a good soundcard with balanced outputs for less than $200?

[MH79]

I'm using my M-audio delta 44 right now, and it is working quite well, but I was wondering if upgrading to an E-mu 0404 USB and the M-audio audiophile 192 would give much better quality?

The specs seem very good on these two cards... Anyone know of anymore soundcard which have good a DAC and are less than $200?

 

[Behemot]

Is 0404 USB balanced?

Some unbalanced cards score excellent results in tests anyway. I was amazed by the Infrasonic Quartet results on digit-life:

http://www.digit-life.com/articles2/...c-quartet.html

 

[sejarzo]

Yes, the 1/4" main outputs on the 0404 USB carry a balanced signal.

 

[rhythmdevils]

I would also be interested in this...

 

[MH79]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Behemot /img/forum/go_quote.gif Is 0404 USB balanced? Some unbalanced cards score excellent results in tests anyway. I was amazed by the Infrasonic Quartet results on digit-life: http://www.digit-life.com/articles2/...c-quartet.html

That does look like a good card for the money if your going single ended.

The 0404 does have balanced outputs (TRS). I really need balanced, I'm currently making a balanced cable for my HD-580's, and also sorting out amps.

Would if help if I dug up data about the DAC's in various cards? Would it be easier to compare the quality then? I already know what's in my Delta 44, and the Audiophile 192 is meant to be a step up. I'm not sure how much difference it will make tho.

I've just found the E-MU 1212M - looks like the best yet, cheaper than the 0404, and better SQ (apparently) also.

EDIT: Noticed this about the 1212M:

"Analog Line Outputs (2)

Type: Balanced, low-noise, 3-pole low-pass differential filter
D/A converter: CS4398
Level (software selectable):
- Professional: +4dBu nominal, 20dBu max (balanced)
- Consumer: -10dBV nominal, 6dBV max (unbalanced)
Frequency Response (20Hz - 20kHz): + 0.0/-.35dB,
Dynamic Range (1kHz, A-weighted): 120dB
Signal-to-Noise Ratio (A-weighted): 120dB
THD+N (1kHz at -1dBFS): -105dB (.0006%)
Stereo Crosstalk (1kHz at -1dBFS): < -115dB "

I keep hearing about two ways of getting balanced, straight from the DAC, or another way using op-amps. Anyone know how the 1212M gets it's balanced output?

 

[sejarzo]

The balanced outputs of an 0404 USB cannot directly drive headphones, just to be sure you knew that.

The 1212M is an internal PCI configuration. The 0404 USB uses proprietary drivers to send the digital audio data stream over USB in block mode to the external box, where it is buffered and reclocked. IMHO, a better concept.

Most "flagship" DAC chips these days are designed with balanced outputs, but I don't think any of them put out enough voltage to drive pro-level balanced lines, so there is always some sort of gain stage between the output pins of the DAC and the output jacks.

 

[MH79]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sejarzo /img/forum/go_quote.gif The balanced outputs of an 0404 USB cannot directly drive headphones, just to be sure you knew that.

Yep, I plan on using a balanced amp set up along with some re-terminated hd-580's.

By the sounds of it the 0404 USB may have the edge - I found some old threads on the 1212m, and modding it for better sound which may mean there is more room for improvement. I'm more than happy to get the soldering iron out, but it's nice also when you have a card that sounds good without blackgates everywhere... So I think the 0404 USB is the way to go.

From what I've read here, it's more than just DAC specs - the quality of the op-amps and caps is also a big factor. I'm particularly interested to hear from anyone who is using either of these cards in a balanced config tho.

I'm perfectly happy with my Delta 44 for now, so I'm not in any rush to upgrade, but I want to be sure when I do upgrade I get the best I can (or should that be the card I'm happy with)...

 

[DSlayerZX]

Juli@ has a balanced out put.
its RCA out put isn't bad at all so, I would assume that its balanced output would only be better

 

[subharmonic]

Sound good...

 

[sejarzo]

What I fail to comprehend is this.........

The major presumed advantage in balanced headamps is the elimination of the common ground "return" (which I still don't fully get, as we're considering an AC circuit, not a one-way street.) That advantage would be present regardless of whether or not the headamp is driven by a balanced or unbalanced signal, in most cases.

Is your requirement for a balanced source simply due to your combination of a couple of unbalanced headamps into a balanced configuration?

 

[MerlinWerks]

Terratec Phase 22 is worth looking into...

 

[MH79]

I've had a look at the Juli@ and the Phase 22, and while they both offer balanced outputs, the DAC's don't seem to be as good as the DAC's on the 0404 USB or the 1212m. I think I'm gonna go for the 0404 USB, it seems to have evrything. Hell, I can even use it as a standalone DAC from my iRiver's TOSLINK... Cheers for the suggestions tho, it's nice to know how the others compare.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sejarzo /img/forum/go_quote.gif What I fail to comprehend is this......... The major presumed advantage in balanced headamps is the elimination of the common ground "return" (which I still don't fully get, as we're considering an AC circuit, not a one-way street.) That advantage would be present regardless of whether or not the headamp is driven by a balanced or unbalanced signal, in most cases. Is your requirement for a balanced source simply due to your combination of a couple of unbalanced headamps into a balanced configuration?

Yep, I plan on using a couple of PenguinAMP Caffine's (one for each channel).
Have a look here for info on balanced vs unbalanced - I found it much easier to get my head around it all after reading this:

http://www.headphone.com/products/fa...vs-unbalanced/

Balanced has many advantages, and I figure I can get good bang for buck with this set up... I don't really have $500+ spare on high end headphone amps (and DAC), and I figure with a few DIY cables, I should be able to have a set up that can sound as good as something far more expensive...

That's the plan at least, weather it work in practice is another matter.

 

[sejarzo]

It will be interesting to see your results.

Balanced has many potential advantages, I'd say.

I've read through the HeadRoom material a number of times in the past....and yes, it does seem as if there should be a theoretical advantage to running headphones in balanced mode (like running monoblocks or a dual mono amp config to speakers.)

I hope you find some benefit in your setup.......but I also wonder why this hasn't been extensively evaluated in the past, especially because it would be so easy/cheap (comparatively easy, anyway!) to put a 4 pin XLR on a Senn cable and use two inexpensive opamp-based headamps in such a configuration.

 

[infinitesymphony]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeHunt79 /img/forum/go_quote.gif I found some old threads on the 1212m, and modding it for better sound which may mean there is more room for improvement.

People will mod anything, including the 0404 USB.

The 0404 USB's convenient features definitely put it on par with the 1212M in terms of price-to-performance ratio. It would be tough to find a better standalone DAC for the price, not to mention an audio interface.

 

[MH79]

Quote:

Originally Posted by infinitesymphony /img/forum/go_quote.gif People will mod anything, including the 0404 USB. The 0404 USB's convenient features definitely put it on par with the 1212M in terms of price-to-performance ratio. It would be tough to find a better standalone DAC for the price, not to mention an audio interface.

I'd love to see some 0404 USB mods.

The audio interface part makes it a ideal for me - I'm going to be using this set up for music production as well as listening music.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sejarzo /img/forum/go_quote.gif It will be interesting to see your results. Balanced has many potential advantages, I'd say. I've read through the HeadRoom material a number of times in the past....and yes, it does seem as if there should be a theoretical advantage to running headphones in balanced mode (like running monoblocks or a dual mono amp config to speakers.) I hope you find some benefit in your setup.......but I also wonder why this hasn't been extensively evaluated in the past, especially because it would be so easy/cheap (comparatively easy, anyway!) to put a 4 pin XLR on a Senn cable and use two inexpensive opamp-based headamps in such a configuration.

All credit to SK138:
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/showpo...9&postcount=30

This is what inspired me to order a 2nd headphone amp.

I'm going to rewire the hd-580's with 2 x 3.5mm jacks, and figure out some way of controlling volume. I think I'll see if I can hunt down a 4 pole pot or slider.