What makes one portable player better than the other?
Feb 17, 2011 at 8:01 AM Post #61 of 129
this thread is like the iranian nuclear talks. Nothing is getting done and boring as hell to sit through. Why not debate "What makes a headphone better than the other" - there will be an equal amount of success.
 
Treble roll off makes for crappy sound? Then why do tube amp users spend tons of money for it. With bright sounding headphones I assure you the treble roll off is a nice thing.
 
Feb 17, 2011 at 11:14 AM Post #62 of 129

 
Quote:
Thank you for the high-quality post.  Will you, on your blog, explain to readers the correlations between various technical measurements and sound quality?  For example, when listening to typical music, what is the minimum amount of channel separation required for a neutral sound?  What is the maximum amount of total harmonic distortion that can be allowed while still achieving a neutral sound?
 
Which intermodulation-distortion standard should be used?  What is the maximum amount of intermodulation distortion that can be allowed while still achieving a neutral sound?   Etc.  The vast majority of audiophile websites and magazines are subjective and appear to be more interested in helping vendors sell their products than trying to help and educate audiophiles so that they can get the best value for their money.
 
Yes, I hope to at least try and help with correlating measurements with sound quality and I welcome input from others. This thread was essentially started asking just that question. And it's a very good question. Right now, the RMAA and Impedance posts on nwavguy.com have lots of information about what measurements matter and why. But I certainly plan to provide more and will soon post reviews of 3 popular portable players.
 
The good news is there's some solid research into psychoacoustics to allow correlating certain objective measurements with sound quality. If we're talking about fairly big differences, as appear in some portable players, it's relatively easy to declare an obvious winner in terms of perceived sound quality. Many audiophile subjectivists will still dispute some of it I'm sure, but when you look at their positions within audio as a whole, their other choices are rather grim. It would be a massive paradigm shift to stop defending the usual myths. I doubt I'll change their mind. But those like the person who started this thread are likely looking for some answers I might be able to help with.
 
What happened when oenophiles picked a $3 bottle of wine over some of the expensive top choices of critics in a blind tasting? Did it completely change their wine buying habits? No. What did happen is most of them now refuse to participate in similar tastings for rather vague or questionable reasons. It's safe to assume the main reason is they don't want to be humiliated again. Their heads are firmly in the sand to justify their expensive taste in wine.
 
The way I see it, it comes down to "pleasure for your dollar". If drinking more expensive wine puts a bigger smile on your face, that's a valid reason to spend more money. The same can be said of some audiophile gear but it's certainly not true for everyone. Many would rather save all that money and spend it on something else that will bring them even more enjoyment.
 
The bad news is others who have come before me have generally been attacked and various attempts made to discredit them. There is simply too much money behind selling gear based on a lot of the myths, hype and misinformation. It's like trying to get Congress to enact campaign finance reform in the US. Lots of them know deep down they should, but they probably never will as they don't want to cut off the hand that feeds them. And, in the audiophile world, agreeing to a more objective critique of gear would mean the justification for huge amounts of money already spent would be removed. An audiophile who accepted the objective side would never look at his $5000 CD player the same way again.
 
Guys like Sean Olive ( http://seanolive.blogspot.com/ ) and Peter Aczel ( http://theaudiocritic.com/cwo/Our_Philosophy/ ) dared to step in front of the train and they didn't have a very pleasant time of it. But their work is still out there and just as valid as its always been. And some in this thread have already linked to some great information at http://www.hydrogenaudio.org where the "signal to noise" ratio is better than on most sites.
 
Some are bravely applying the latest technology to this problem. I particularly respect the work of Bill Waslo at Liberty Instruments. He presented a fascinating paper at the Audio Engineering Society a few years ago. Like me, he was frustrated with all the myth, hype and misinformation out there. So he developed the Audio DiffMaker which is capable of evaluating many parts of the audio signal chain under real world conditions rather than test signals. His method overcomes a lot of the issues that have been endlessly debated between the subjectivists and objectivists. You can even download the free tool along with pre-made difference files. The files shatter several myths promoted by the audiophile community. Check out http://www.libinst.com/Audio%20DiffMaker.htm for more information.
 
The other bad news is some things are still open to debate even among the objective community. The right research can go a long way to resolving some of the debate. But who's going to pay for it? Certainly anyone with a financial interest in the audiophile industry will not fund the research unless they're sure the outcome will support their cause or they can otherwise control the results. It does happen--such as some of the work by Sean Olive being funded by Harmon International (that owns lots of audio brands)--but it's rare.
 
 A lot of engineers subscribe to the "most gear meeting some minimum level of specs sounds the same" mantra. The audiophile in me knows that's not always true and the engineer in me wants to know why. I want to evaluate gear as objectively as possible and even find new methods and perhaps reasons why there are audible differences that might not be caught by the traditional basic measurements. I also want to expose more of the snake oil, myths and hype that lead to people spending more money than they need to.
 
But, just like funding research, how do you fund an audio related site that becomes really popular? It's easy to start a small personal blog like I have. But most popular sites eventually need some revenue or other justification for their expenses, time and resources. The ones that manage to avoid conflicts of interest are rare. Even Hydrogenaudio has Google ads on it but I think they do a better job than most at not letting the ads affect their content. So I can see the other side of it. Why try and swim upstream, invest time and money, and get attacked, without being paid?
 

 
Feb 17, 2011 at 3:24 PM Post #64 of 129


Quote:
Many audiophile subjectivists will still dispute some of it I'm sure, but when you look at their positions within audio as a whole, their other choices are rather grim.
 
Yes, I completely agree with you here.  The disputes tend to be for psychological reasons and not technical reasons or based on the presentation of new evidence.
 
It would be a massive paradigm shift to stop defending the usual myths.
 
I do not see this ever happening as long as there continues to be a lot of money to be made from high-end audio.
 
I doubt I'll change their mind.
 
I also doubt it.  It is only the rare subjectivist audiophile who changes his mind as this thread has already proven.  Objectivist audiophiles can only hope to get as many of the fence-sitters as possible.
 
What happened when oenophiles picked a $3 bottle of wine over some of the expensive top choices of critics in a blind tasting? Did it completely change their wine buying habits? No. What did happen is most of them now refuse to participate in similar tastings for rather vague or questionable reasons. It's safe to assume the main reason is they don't want to be humiliated again. Their heads are firmly in the sand to justify their expensive taste in wine.
 
Perhaps http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-purchase_rationalization.   
 
Some are bravely applying the latest technology to this problem. I particularly respect the work of Bill Waslo at Liberty Instruments. He presented a fascinating paper at the Audio Engineering Society a few years ago. Like me, he was frustrated with all the myth, hype and misinformation out there. So he developed the Audio DiffMaker which is capable of evaluating many parts of the audio signal chain under real world conditions rather than test signals. His method overcomes a lot of the issues that have been endlessly debated between the subjectivists and objectivists. You can even download the free tool along with pre-made difference files. The files shatter several myths promoted by the audiophile community. Check out http://www.libinst.com/Audio%20DiffMaker.htm for more information.
 
Peter Aczel wrote an article on this.
 
http://theaudiocritic.com/plog/index.php?op=ViewArticle&articleId=9&blogId=1.
 
I pointed out this article to a subjectivist audiophile, and he was very angry at me for having done so.  I suppose the subjectivist audiophiles will always be angry at the objectivist audiophiles for daring to debunk the myths. 
 
But, just like funding research, how do you fund an audio related site that becomes really popular?
 
Peter Aczel had this same problem with his magazine.  Some high-end-audio vendors stopped advertising, because Aczel refused to be a cheerleader.
  
Why try and swim upstream, invest time and money, and get attacked, without being paid?
 
Well, I guess Aczel is doing it just for the satisfaction of knowing that he has made a difference—at least for some audiophiles.  Thank you for the blog, posts, and Olive link.

 
Feb 17, 2011 at 3:58 PM Post #65 of 129
So anytime someone says something disagreeing, just toss outt he old' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-purchase_rationalization ' link and they are automatically wrong?
 
I have my own convincing..
 
Quote:
Why would a Wookiee, an 8-foot-tall Wookiee, want to live on Endor, with a bunch of 2-foot-tall Ewoks? That does not make sense! But more important, you have to ask yourself: What does this have to do with this case? Nothing. Ladies and gentlemen, it has nothing to do with this case! It does not make sense! Look at me. I'm a lawyer defending a major record company, and I'm talkin' about Chewbacca! Does that make sense? Ladies and gentlemen, I am not making any sense! None of this makes sense! And so you have to remember, when you're in that jury room deliberatin' and conjugatin' the Emancipation Proclamation, does it make sense? No! Ladies and gentlemen of this supposed jury, it does not make sense! If Chewbacca lives on Endor, you must acquit! The defense rests.

 
Feb 17, 2011 at 4:20 PM Post #66 of 129
So, whatever you buy, either you will have Post-purchase rationalization if you like it or buyer's remorse if u hate it 
confused_face(1).gif

 
Feb 17, 2011 at 4:22 PM Post #67 of 129
I'm not saying anyone is automatically wrong. It comes down to the average non-audiophile wanting say a new portable player and they Google something like "best sounding portable player" and end up spending many times what they planned on a Cowon or HiFiMan because of the many glowing *audiophile* subjective reviews that strongly state it sounds "night and day better" than all sorts of more reasonably priced options. They may well be unaware those "night and day" differences are often more imagined than real.
 
Never mind that, in reality, the more expensive player may actually *under* perform many of the less expensive alternatives or it may have other annoying problems or limitations (like size, weight, battery life, ease of use, etc.) on top of costing many times more. But it's much harder to find some of that data on the web--especially valid measurements of the audio performance.
 
When I publish my blog review of a Cowon player measuring worse in audible ways than an iPod or Clip+ I may get some disagreement from the subjective crowd--especially Cowon owners. But it's just reality. Cowon does a better job than most with their EQ options. And I think that might be at least one valid reason they're so praised for their sound quality. But in terms of raw audio performance with no EQ, the company has lots of room for improvement and there are less expensive options from other manufactures that--EQ aside--sound better. They're also easier to use--the user interface on most Cowon players is relatively awful.
 
To me, the big issue is all the people being mislead by these subjective reviews that are not grounded in any sort of factual reality. If the comments and reviews were exclusive to an inner circle of esoteric audiophiles (i.e. only published in say Stereophile) that would be fine. But they're posted in very mainstream places where they can easily mislead the average lay-person.
 
And when these claims are repeated often enough, they often assume a life of their own and are generally assumed to be fact (like Cowon players sounding better than more mainstream choices). So it can easily go beyond someone just being entitled to their own personal opinion.
 
Most of us can't stop the subjective reviews, but some of us can try to make more facts available, offer rational background information on what matters and why, and provide other more objective ways to make informed choices. And perhaps if enough people eventually cry foul on the myths in the very places they're promoted, they'll slowly fade into the noise and more factual information will prevail. It's good to have lofty goals.
 
Feb 17, 2011 at 4:48 PM Post #68 of 129


Quote:
So, whatever you buy, either you will have Post-purchase rationalization if you like it or buyer's remorse if u hate it 
confused_face(1).gif



 
Definitely not as simple as that.  Let us say you paid $10 000 US for a brick to put on top of your power amplifier to improve the sound quality.  And the improvement is incredible!  The rhythm and pace is better.   The soundstage is expanded.  It is more musical.  It is smoother.  It is clearer.  The bass is tighter.  The bass is deeper. 
 
When you regain consciousness and are allowed to leave the hospital, you rave to all your audiophile buddies.  They all agree that the improvement is a night-and-day difference.  Everyone opens their wallet.  And then someone tells you that you have been had.  There is no way that a brick placed on top of a power amplifier can improve the sound quality.  He offers to provide proof.   What do you do?
 
Feb 17, 2011 at 5:19 PM Post #69 of 129
Ok...back to technical..
 
If frequency response is the sole criteria, the Clip+ should be the world's best music player. HiFiMan agrees that they have frequency roll off. The equalizer in their player itself is upto 6k. They claim that the Butterworth filter is what makes the music "organic" and it is responsible for the rolloff. In Cowon, it is not just the equalizer. Cowon claims that the BBE provides superior harmonics through over sampling. At least theoretically, isn't this supposed to provide  "more enjoyable" music?
 
Feb 17, 2011 at 5:31 PM Post #70 of 129
Haters gonna hate. That's it really.

I'm a member of all sorts of forums, from games consoles to golf equipment.

Every forums the same. Different people with different rationale to justify their own purchases, at the expense of other peoples choices.

Then there are the people who just like to claim everyone is wrong, and everything is a waste of money but you know what...

My golf is better since I got those new clubs, my new console has better games than my old one, and my new IEMs sound better than my old ones.

I can also say for a fact that my old iPhone sounded better than my new HTC Desire HD, and because my new phone doesn't sound as good as my old one, i've joined this forum and done a lot of research into separate players, learnt a lot of science behind sound, and ended up buying a cowon without ever hearing one.

It doesn't have to be better than everything, just better than what I have already.

Am I following the herd? Maybe, but there might just be something in what they say too, and I don't necessarily have to understand the 'why' in order to appreciate it.
 
Feb 17, 2011 at 5:48 PM Post #71 of 129


Quote:
Ok...back to technical..
 
If frequency response is the sole criteria, the Clip+ should be the world's best music player. HiFiMan agrees that they have frequency roll off. The equalizer in their player itself is upto 6k. They claim that the Butterworth filter is what makes the music "organic" and it is responsible for the rolloff. In Cowon, it is not just the equalizer. Cowon claims that the BBE provides superior harmonics through over sampling. At least theoretically, isn't this supposed to provide  "more enjoyable" music?


If someone doesn't agree with evaluating devices against each other on a level playing field--which in this case requires turning the EQ off--then it's just about impossible to provide any meaningful objective measurements of sound quality that can be fairly compared between devices. So we're no longer measuring 0-60 acceleration of the car, we're now talking about how the leather smells. And that's an entirely different discussion than objective technical measurements.
 
So the discussion changes from which car is faster to 60, to my seats smell better than yours. Or, put another way, the guy who loses that stoplight race is looking for other ways to justify why his car is better. And that can go on endlessly.
 
Feb 17, 2011 at 5:55 PM Post #73 of 129


Quote:
They claim that the Butterworth filter is what makes the music "organic" and it is responsible for the rolloff.
An excellent-sounding MP3 player—no signal processing activated—sounds neutral.
In Cowon, it is not just the equalizer. Cowon claims that the BBE provides superior harmonics through over sampling. At least theoretically, isn't this supposed to provide  "more enjoyable" music?
If the user likes signal processing, the user likes signal processing.  This thread is about the sound of MP3 players with all the signal processing off.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signal_processing.



 

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