What makes one portable player better than the other?
Feb 15, 2011 at 5:24 AM Post #46 of 129
Well I'll fix that.
 
My cowon D2+ is WAY better than my wife's ipod touch.That's because I like the way it sounds WAY more.
 
Sorry no technical explanation.:frowning2:    It did cost less $ though :)
 
Merriam Webster definition of "better"(as an adjective):
 
1
: greater than half <for the better part of an hour>
2
: improved in health or mental attitude <feeling better>

3
: more attractive, favorable, or commendable <in better circumstances>

4
: more advantageous or effective <a better solution>

5
: improved in accuracy or performance <building a better engine>
 
Even though Y'all may prefer definition 5 I like 3(or maybe 2) because it's so obviously subjective.


 
Quote:
This thread increasingly belongs in Sound Science. How many of the last 20 or so posts had anything specific to say about DAPs ? It has turned into a computer audio/abx/codec discussion.



 
Feb 15, 2011 at 10:50 PM Post #47 of 129


Quote:
 
Even though Y'all may prefer definition 5 I like 3(or maybe 2) because it's so obviously subjective.


 

 



Congratulations - you just took us right back to square one. The OP, and folk like anomaly, started by objecting to the whole 'subjectivity' thing and you've come out waving a large red flag for subjectivity - way to go.
 
Feb 16, 2011 at 6:06 AM Post #48 of 129

No problem.When I see some real objective evidence on this thread I promise to wave a white flag.Until then.........
Quote:
Congratulations - you just took us right back to square one. The OP, and folk like anomaly, started by objecting to the whole 'subjectivity' thing and you've come out waving a large red flag for subjectivity - way to go.



 
Feb 16, 2011 at 6:33 AM Post #49 of 129


Quote:
No problem.When I see some real objective evidence on this thread I promise to wave a white flag.Until then.........

 



 While I understand where you are coming from, and somewhat agree with you, there are more objective ways of measuring wether one DAP is better than another. First you have to define what "better" is, to keep subjective opinions away. Then you can use stuff like ABXing and RMAA tests which produce Frequency response graphs that can show which DAP does a better job of reproducing the music. That is, if you have defined "better" as that (i.e. reproducing the music faithfully). In that case, bass or treble roll off is bad. The flatter the frequency response is, the better.
 
I prefer to take the subjective approach since I do not feel the need to compare. I prefer the thrill of buying and trying. If you need to compare, then subjectivity will only lead you back to square one as estreeter puts it.
 
You think that your Cowon D2+ is way better than your wife's iPod Touch. Well, that might not be the truth for your wife or someone else. Does that mean that you are right and they are wrong?
The subjectivist approach might work for yourself, but you have to realise that your opinions are only valid for yourself.
 
Feb 16, 2011 at 9:13 AM Post #50 of 129
Danneq.....
 
Of course my wife knows the truth.
 
 
My opinions are my own.I embrace this.Others are not wrong because they like other things.This is my entire point.
 
Subjectivity IS always for EVERYONE regarding sonic taste(IMO).This is also definitely not restricted to sonic taste(or PMPs).
 
Some people definitely put more care, love, money, technique and science into the products they create though.   I'm not sure I can recognize or measure this.Sometimes I FEEL like I can but.....
 
I also am of the opinion that many people listen real carefully to the music on their PMPs and others use them as background music(kind of like wallpaper).Fine.
 
I also would really like to see if there is objective information to inform me how to buy the best PMP.Then again I like my Sennheiser hd650s more than my Beyerdynamic T1s("Tesla technology breakthrough") so obviously I am not very smart and probably wouldn't realize the betterness.
 
And in my own defence to "estreeter" regarding "square one".....At least was still talking about PMPs(among other things :)  ).I don't think the "objectivists " ever got to square two on this topic,they went on to other topics entirely.
 
Science and audio/sonic gratification are a mixed bag(FACT).
 

 
Quote:
 While I understand where you are coming from, and somewhat agree with you, there are more objective ways of measuring wether one DAP is better than another. First you have to define what "better" is, to keep subjective opinions away. Then you can use stuff like ABXing and RMAA tests which produce Frequency response graphs that can show which DAP does a better job of reproducing the music. That is, if you have defined "better" as that (i.e. reproducing the music faithfully). In that case, bass or treble roll off is bad. The flatter the frequency response is, the better.
 
I prefer to take the subjective approach since I do not feel the need to compare. I prefer the thrill of buying and trying. If you need to compare, then subjectivity will only lead you back to square one as estreeter puts it.
 
You think that your Cowon D2+ is way better than your wife's iPod Touch. Well, that might not be the truth for your wife or someone else. Does that mean that you are right and they are wrong?
The subjectivist approach might work for yourself, but you have to realise that your opinions are only valid for yourself.



 
Feb 16, 2011 at 10:09 AM Post #51 of 129


Quote:
 
I also would really like to see if there is objective information to inform me how to buy the best PMP.



 
What kind of objective information are you looking for and how do you define best?  If it is just sound quality, a high-quality MP3 player from vendors like Apple, SanDisk, Sony, Cowon, Archos, Microsoft, Samsung, Creative, etc., will probably be good enough.  If, however, you dislike a neutral sound, then you should definitely buy an MP3 player that has the signal processing that you are looking for.  But buying just on the basis of sound quality is probably a bad idea, because there are probably other characteristics as important or more important—e.g., ease of use, features, battery life, size, industrial design, the vendor’s customer service, stability of firmware, etc.
 
Feb 16, 2011 at 11:04 AM Post #52 of 129
What makes one better than another?   Cost/features is a simple way to measure. 
 
iPod Nano 8gb $149.
Samsung P3 8gb $149 or less.
 
The Samsung has far more features.  It gets a lower number.  Nothing else needs to be measured. Low number (P3) wins.
 
iPod Touch 32gb $299.
Cowon D3 32gb $370.
 
Assuming they eventually add an app store to the D3 and fix the current flaws, the two are fairly even in features.  The Touch wins with its lower price.
 
See?   Easy.
 
Feb 16, 2011 at 12:08 PM Post #53 of 129
That's pretty much the way I choose, however it's not number of features, but specific features that are make or break for me.  SQ is at the very bottom of the list for me, only because I don't do critical listening with a portable player
 
Feb 16, 2011 at 8:34 PM Post #54 of 129


Quote:
That's pretty much the way I choose, however it's not number of features, but specific features that are make or break for me.  SQ is at the very bottom of the list for me, only because I don't do critical listening with a portable player


While I dont listen 'critically', I still like to the illusion that I am hearing plenty of detail, the illusion of bass impact etc. As I said before, I dont really care how they make the milkshake as long as it tastes good.
 
My sole concessions to the audiophile mantra are that I will use lossless files in preference to anything else and I refuse to activate any form of EQ beyond whatever massaging the manufacturer did to sell the DAP 'out of the box' - for the sake of argument, lets call that 'flat' EQ.
 
That said, if folk are happy listening to 128K MP3s with whatever EQ tickles their fancy, so be it - this should be about enjoying that piece of plastic, not trying to find someone to tie to a chair and apply electrodes to ......
 
 
Feb 16, 2011 at 10:23 PM Post #55 of 129
When I'm working around the house or yard, I don't really care too much about SQ.  At work, if I'm listening to my iPod, it's though a vintage Hitachi amp.  The headphones I listen to at work can't be driven by any portable.  
 
I've also never done anything but guess during ABX tests of 128kbps AAC vs lossless, so that's what I load on my iPod.  My number 1 criteria is hard drive volume so I can fit as much of my library on it as I can.
 
Feb 16, 2011 at 11:01 PM Post #56 of 129
Jesus Christ, this was the most boring thread I think I've ever read on any forum anywhere.  OP asks a loaded question.  Nobody's answer is good enough until Nerd Camp A goes overly-analytical/technical, then Nerd Camp B counters with overly-subjective/emotional response...anger ensues.  One side speaks in broad terms, the other breaks everything down to grammatical nuance. "Show me the evidence!"..."No, YOU show ME!".  Never the twain shall meet.  Four pages later, nothing is resolved, and I'll never get my fifteen minutes back. 
It's threads like this that make me want to leave Head-Fi and never return. 
tongue_smile.gif

 
Feb 17, 2011 at 12:06 AM Post #58 of 129
Quote:
estreeter said:
Then our work here is done - beer o'clock, men !


 Haha!  Awesome!  First round's on Anomaly!
 
 
Feb 17, 2011 at 2:36 AM Post #59 of 129
Threads like this make me sad. There are no shortage of opinions on the web, but there is a shortage of factual, objective, and unbiased information that can be verified and compared in valid ways. Sadly, most of the objective data that can be found is either from sources with conflicts of interest (they sell the stuff, or their advertisers do), or from people who don't have the knowledge and/or equipment to provide valid information that's fit for comparison. So I recently started an entirely non-commercial, not-for-profit, personal blog to try and improve the situation--at least a little.
 
Subjective opinions certainly matter. I won't argue with someone's taste in wine, or even if they prefer lots of bass in their headphones. But they only go so far in helping others as we all have different tastes. At least with something like portable music players it's possible to provide meaningful objective data that can be useful to anyone making a decision.
 
A Ford guy might think the Mustang is the best car in its class while a Chevy guy likely thinks it's the Camaro. But at least several car magazines put both on a test track and run them at their limit door to door and a clear winner almost always emerges. Yeah, the Ford might have better seats to some--that's subjective and personal taste. But 0-60 times, the 1/4 mile, gas mileage, lap times on a track, etc. are hard numbers, that when done right, can be fairly compared. And those numbers typically correlate well into which car will win an informal "stoplight drag"--i.e. they're valid and they matter in the real world. Audio can be the same way but few products ever get compared on an objective level playing field--the audio equivalent of the car test track.
 
Many offer what they think are technical explanations to support their positions, but their lack of knowledge and/or the right equipment for valid measurements often make their claims empty unless they're otherwise well referenced. If they don't have solid facts behind them, they should stick to the wine analogy--i.e. they prefer Player A over Player B but you might like the opposite.
 
The world of digital and analog audio is loaded with complexities and variables that many are unaware of. And oversimplifying often just doesn't work--things like impedance, jitter, and compression are misunderstood by many. And the manufactures, dealers, and audiophile press generally don't help things at all. They have their own agendas--generally to keep everyone spending more money even if they don't need to. What's dangerous is when myths are assumed to be fact because they're repeated so often.
 
The post in this thread regarding WAV files sounding better than FLAC is an example of a typical myth. But once you understand how the data stream works in playing back digital audio files, there really is NO difference. None. Zero. There's nothing magic or mystical here. The data stream entering the DAC is identical in either case so the DAC can't tell them apart. The differences some claim to hear are either purely psychological or related to some other variable besides the FLAC encoding. I can provide solid references on this for anyone who thinks I'm wrong and I'd love to hear what *objective* evidence they have? I'll see them at the track.
 
Another example: RMAA results are frequently referenced by many as solid "proof" of one product's superiority over another. In reality, RMAA has lots of flaws of its own, and worse, it's typically used in ways that make comparison literally impossible. I can easily make a $10 Chinese no-name USB audio device show better results on RMAA than a $400 desktop DAC. The technical details of why RMAA is flawed, complete with some screen shots, are on my blog. And more will be coming. It's sad to see even some of the big sites touting RMAA as being far more valid than it really is.
 
Many portable players are not at the "point of diminishing returns" you find in higher end audio gear where the differences often are inaudible. Portables are designed to be cheap, small, run for dozens of hours from a tiny battery, etc. All of these things are in conflict with high-end sound quality.
 
So there really *are* measurable parameters in portable players that can account for many audible differences. Many of them have been mentioned and alternately credited, and dismissed, in this very thread. Just one example is output impedance (something RMAA doesn't measure). I show graphs on my blog of how headphone impedance interacts with output impedance in some VERY audible ways. And it varies widely among portable players.
 
And some of the players people automatically assume are better (mostly due to mis-information spread on the web), really are not. I just tested one of the new Cowon players that has a loyal following and it performed significantly *worse* than an iPod Touch 3G on just about *every* test. Even the $39 Sansa Clip+ outperforms the far more expensive Cowon in some key areas. I'll be posting the full reviews soon on the blog.
 
There are many things that can make an audible difference that are not revealed in typical specs, and some are not tested by RMAA, but they can be revealed with more advanced equipment and test methods. I list some of them in my blog.
 
There often are technical reasons why someone prefers one thing to another. Sometimes they're just not very obvious. For example, vinyl lovers typically prefer an LP of an old recording to the later CD release. CD's, in pretty much every way, are technically superior to vinyl. But, CD's of old recordings have to be made from the original master tapes. And tape deteriorates badly with age. So the CD was made from an old "faded" tape while the vinyl LP was made from much better sounding fresh tape. So the vinyl lover's preference has some objective evidence behind it after all. You just have to know where to look.
 
Please feel free to comment here or on the blog if you like. I don't plan to censor topics like blind testing, etc. And I don't expect to change the opinions of the masses. But if I can even help a handful of people make more informed choices, the blog is worth it. Facts can be way more useful than opinion, myth and hype.
 
Feb 17, 2011 at 6:17 AM Post #60 of 129


Quote:
 
Please feel free to comment here or on the blog if you like.

Thank you for the high-quality post.  Will you, on your blog, explain to readers the correlations between various technical measurements and sound quality?  For example, when listening to typical music, what is the minimum amount of channel separation required for a neutral sound?  What is the maximum amount of total harmonic distortion that can be allowed while still achieving a neutral sound?
 
Which intermodulation-distortion standard should be used?  What is the maximum amount of intermodulation distortion that can be allowed while still achieving a neutral sound?   Etc.  The vast majority of audiophile websites and magazines are subjective and appear to be more interested in helping vendors sell their products than trying to help and educate audiophiles so that they can get the best value for their money.
 

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