What lush, warm, euphoric, organic sounding DACs are there out there?

[westsounds]

Hi all. I figured this was really the best place to ask this question as no one analyses sound more than headphone users.

Just wondering what kind of DACs can fit this description.

I remember having a Pioneer PD91 cd player many years ago and apart from analogue sources themselves this player was about the closest I've been to natural and organic, especially in the vocals. Everything else I've listened to has been kind of sterile and 'digital' in comparison but I have had some good DACs over the years which have been ok. As impressive as digital is though it can be tiresome to listen to.

I'm not looking for a CD player again and the PD91 is very long in the tooth now anyway, I just want a DAC (or DAC headphone amp). What suggestions are there, even at lower price points if you think they are comparable or suit this description.

Want a nice to listen to sound but still have that substance, detail and quality in the sound that better quality DACs can give. Any suggestions?

Reposted in the right section this time, put in amps before.

Does budget really matter? One kind member suggested a Holo Audio May, but can we get carried away with the price of digital since it really is a limited format. A CD does only contains so much information. Spending 1000s more is not going to extract anymore if it's designed properly. It is the tonality I am looking for over everything else anyway.

 

[XVampireX]

A DAC is not only about "extracting so much information" it's about reproduction of the sound, truthfully and with no distortion. There are probably still some measurements that we didn't get to measure that tell us the whole story, but trust me when I tell you that a DAC makes a world of difference.
But like I said before, you need to write your budget.

 

[westsounds]

A DAC is not only about "extracting so much information" it's about reproduction of the sound, truthfully and with no distortion. There are probably still some measurements that we didn't get to measure that tell us the whole story, but trust me when I tell you that a DAC makes a world of difference.
But like I said before, you need to write your budget.

Yes absolutely, this is a great reply. The thing I was getting at is there is only so much information contained on say a CD, extraction of it all is one thing but getting it to fool the brain into thinking that sounds real is a whole different thing. Analogue lovers will never fully appreciate digitally reproduced music even though it is technically better it can lose some of its organic richness of real life. When you see musicians live for instance they are live sounds they are not digital reproductions, analogue sound waves, where digital is converted to analogue obviously it does sound the same and technically should be indistinguishable sounds to the human ear/brain but they do sound different. Hence analogue equipment kind of gives this different edge to music reproduction which people hanker after.

As you say measurement equipment doesn't justify it because we listen organically not technically.

And on the subject of cost, yes ok I know it's not possible to build something of quality cheap (or is it) does cost cloud our judgement. Certainly empties peoples wallets.

Let's say up to £400 then new or used.

 

[XVampireX]

Well, when I'm listening through the Holo Audio May KTE, I feel like the headphones just disappear (other than feeling them on my head because they are quite heavy still) and sound is just coming out as if I was in the venue of the recording with more lush and organic sound of course. That's why I said that it's really an amazing DAC and worth it, you can also get cheaper the Holo Audio Spring 3.
Maybe it's worth checking R2R DACs in general because they are definitely more analogue sounding.
There are a few options from Denafrips, as well as maybe worth trying some of the Schiit DACs with the multibit module perhaps. I've heard that Bifrost 2 is a good choice for something not very resolving but more warm and lush perhaps, though I haven't had the chance to hear it myself.

 

[helljudgement]

Want a nice to listen to sound but still have that substance, detail and quality in the sound that better quality DACs can give. Any suggestions?

I like the bifrost 2. It is plenty resolving and has great bass slam especially when compared to delta sigma dac. Tonally it is a bit darker sounding than the all delta sigma I tried in this range. It is also above your budget so do some research and see if it is worth stretching for.

 

[westsounds]

Well, when I'm listening through the Holo Audio May KTE, I feel like the headphones just disappear (other than feeling them on my head because they are quite heavy still) and sound is just coming out as if I was in the venue of the recording with more lush and organic sound of course. That's why I said that it's really an amazing DAC and worth it, you can also get cheaper the Holo Audio Spring 3.
Maybe it's worth checking R2R DACs in general because they are definitely more analogue sounding.
There are a few options from Denafrips, as well as maybe worth trying some of the Schiit DACs with the multibit module perhaps. I've heard that Bifrost 2 is a good choice for something not very resolving but more warm and lush perhaps, though I haven't had the chance to hear it myself.

Wow sounds like you have a great DAC there.

Thanks, yes heard about the R2R thingy not experienced many myself yet but will endeavour to try more. I do have a Starting Point System TDA1543 which I believe is based on an R2R design. And that does have a smoother flavour and more of a pleasant listen have to say. Although it doesn't have the finesse that I remember the PD91 having.

I like the bifrost 2. It is plenty resolving and has great bass slam especially when compared to delta sigma dac. Tonally it is a bit darker sounding than the all delta sigma I tried in this range. It is also above your budget so do some research and see if it is worth stretching for.

Yes heard about the Shiit DACs, must look more and get around to trying a few. There are also mixed reviews on those with some owners claiming they are not actually as smooth as people make out. As always have to try for myself one day.

 

[Ruprit]

I looked up the Pioneer PD91 to have a baseline and that really looks like a special unit. It was released during the golden era of CD players and contains a rather rare Burr Brown R2R chip that was made exclusively for Pioneer. It looks to be about as premium as you can get and still sells for quite a bit. I'm not surprised to hear it sounds so good.

You don't sound too concerned with higher than 48kHz bitrates and with your budget and goals, I would check out vintage DACS from the same era as your CD player. Here's a great database where you can find pretty much every DAC and CD player of old and what chips were used in them. Of course a chip alone dosen't guarantee a good sounding product, but it can be a good start, at least, to see what there is for offer on the classifieds.

I'd start with DACs containing the PCM63, PCM1702, or PCM1704 R2R chip. If they're available in the UK, the Adcom GDA-600 should easily fit your budget with money to spare.

 

[westsounds]

Yes know about those chips and list thanks. On the hunt always. As you say chips don't garentee a sound either implementation also key. Tried a couple of 1704s. Resolution Audio Opus and a naim dac both of which were not really what I'd call warm smooth, but they were good. Naim dac was the better of the two.

Still hanker after what the PD91 did for me years ago but no longer want a cdp. And yes no interest in higher bit rates at all. Redbook only is fine!

 

[trollchu]

I looked up the Pioneer PD91 to have a baseline and that really looks like a special unit. It was released during the golden era of CD players and contains a rather rare Burr Brown R2R chip that was made exclusively for Pioneer. It looks to be about as premium as you can get and still sells for quite a bit. I'm not surprised to hear it sounds so good.

You don't sound too concerned with higher than 48kHz bitrates and with your budget and goals, I would check out vintage DACS from the same era as your CD player. Here's a great database where you can find pretty much every DAC and CD player of old and what chips were used in them. Of course a chip alone dosen't guarantee a good sounding product, but it can be a good start, at least, to see what there is for offer on the classifieds.

I'd start with DACs containing the PCM63, PCM1702, or PCM1704 R2R chip. If they're available in the UK, the Adcom GDA-600 should easily fit your budget with money to spare.

I've got a similar interest as the OP and was going to take this recommendation for a gda-600, however, in trying to plan one into my listening chain, I realized picking something with balanced output may work better for me. Is there anything you guys would recommend?

 

[westsounds]

Smsl m400 is supposedly smooth and warmer sounding than many R2Rs, it has balanced outputs as well. There also filters to colour the sound. Haven't tried one though.

 

[Ruprit]

I've got a similar interest as the OP and was going to take this recommendation for a gda-600, however, in trying to plan one into my listening chain, I realized picking something with balanced output may work better for me. Is there anything you guys would recommend?

There's the GDA-700 which has balanced outputs, but that doesn't show up for sale too often.

Since getting into vintage R2R DACs I've listened to the Adcom GDA-600, Adcom GDA-700, Parasound 1600, Parasound 2000, Audio Research DAC1-20, and the Muse Model Two. They all sound a bit different but they also share one constant over delta sigma which is a non-fatiguing sound. That said, I don't think I could straight up call them warm.
They all produce a wonderfully extended frequency (especially in the bass) yet manage to present treble that is never sibilant. I'm sure many might call it rolled off but I've never found myself thinking it was muddy or lacking detail.

For something truly warm, I've read that a proper NOS DAC is the way to go and I plan on trying some out pretty soon.

Just something to keep in mind with these older DACs. All the ones I have tried are close to thirty years old now. With hindsight, I would have selected ones that are designed simply and are easily repairable with non-proprietary components. For example, the Parasound 1600 just stopped outputting audio in one channel and then started blowing fuses. The internals are so complex that I don't even know where to begin with diagnosing it. The Adcom GDA-700, Parasound 2000, and the Audio Research DAC1-20 all use Ultra Analog modules which are epoxy filled pcbs from a defunct company. They're failure prone and both modules, the D20400 (DAC) and the AES21 (digital receiver) are really hard to get a replacement for. You basically need to cannibalize another converter. I mention this because you are going to see Ultra Analog mentioned a lot and how great they are, and it's true, but they're also more likely to fail than others.

I'll keep looking and post any recommendations.

 

[westsounds]

There's the GDA-700 which has balanced outputs, but that doesn't show up for sale too often.

Since getting into vintage R2R DACs I've listened to the Adcom GDA-600, Adcom GDA-700, Parasound 1600, Parasound 2000, Audio Research DAC1-20, and the Muse Model Two. They all sound a bit different but they also share one constant over delta sigma which is a non-fatiguing sound. That said, I don't think I could straight up call them warm.
They all produce a wonderfully extended frequency (especially in the bass) yet manage to present treble that is never sibilant. I'm sure many might call it rolled off but I've never found myself thinking it was muddy or lacking detail.

For something truly warm, I've read that a proper NOS DAC is the way to go and I plan on trying some out pretty soon.

Just something to keep in mind with these older DACs. All the ones I have tried are close to thirty years old now. With hindsight, I would have selected ones that are designed simply and are easily repairable with non-proprietary components. For example, the Parasound 1600 just stopped outputting audio in one channel and then started blowing fuses. The internals are so complex that I don't even know where to begin with diagnosing it. The Adcom GDA-700, Parasound 2000, and the Audio Research DAC1-20 all use Ultra Analog modules which are epoxy filled pcbs from a defunct company. They're failure prone and both modules, the D20400 (DAC) and the AES21 (digital receiver) are really hard to get a replacement for. You basically need to cannibalize another converter. I mention this because you are going to see Ultra Analog mentioned a lot and how great they are, and it's true, but they're also more likely to fail than others.

I'll keep looking and post any recommendations.

Really interesting post thanks for that.

And yes age is a concern, as you say some of the older chips pcm63 era etc are seriously getting on now in terms of electronics. I'm not so sure if it would be worth investing in those older CDPs/DACs now and breakdown would always be a concern. Which is why I continually look at the new market as well to see what's on offer.

I also agree that a lot of the older high end designs are perhaps better in being non fatiguing and analogue sounding than new designs. But you would have thought modern ones would have been better and able to sound as they want with higher capabilities.

I just bought an SMSL-SU9n being high on features and good value for money, its not bad but there isn't really much in the way of smooth or analogue sounding, even with the sound colour filter set to 'rich', yet still many reviews describe it as being fuller/warmer sounding. Perhaps it'll improve with some long term use but there still seems to have a crystal clear edge to it always. Didn't really get that with the Pioneer PD91, you could almost forget you were listening to CD and it did feel at times there was a human, organic quality to the vocals at times, something I've never really felt since, other than vinyl maybe. I wouldn't go back to one now though, as well built as it was I feel the format is moving on (although redbook done well is still the best we've ever had I believe). Those types of machine now though are practically prehistoric now in terms of electronics component failure would always be a concern.

 

[Ruprit]

Sure thing.

Yeah, when I look at a vintage DACs I've begun to look at the internals to check for any programmable chips or parts with the markings removed. That's prevented me from buying products from companies such as Theta, even though I would love to hear them. I just can't bring myself to buy something that is essentially unrepairable.

When I bought a Chord Qutest, I was most excited with the idea of filters. None of them did much for me. So I think you're absolutely correct that there can be underlying sound that a filter is unable to fully correct or absolve of harshness.

I've been looking at modifying the GDA-600 to NOS and there's a module from China that claims to do just that. I figure it will be worth a shot. I've also got an Audial Aya 5 on order. That uses a NOS TDA1541A in a modern design. There's also the Metrum and Sonnet DACs which based on everything I have read would probably suit my needs perfectly. The only issue is that they're out of my price range.

 

[westsounds]

Sure thing.

Yeah, when I look at a vintage DACs I've begun to look at the internals to check for any programmable chips or parts with the markings removed. That's prevented me from buying products from companies such as Theta, even though I would love to hear them. I just can't bring myself to buy something that is essentially unrepairable.

When I bought a Chord Qutest, I was most excited with the idea of filters. None of them did much for me. So I think you're absolutely correct that there can be underlying sound that a filter is unable to fully correct or absolve of harshness.

I've been looking at modifying the GDA-600 to NOS and there's a module from China that claims to do just that. I figure it will be worth a shot. I've also got an Audial Aya 5 on order. That uses a NOS TDA1541A in a modern design. There's also the Metrum and Sonnet DACs which based on everything I have read would probably suit my needs perfectly. The only issue is that they're out of my price range.

Very interesting, and I'm with you some of this past legendary equipment is very appealing. I know Sonic Frontiers did a high-end DAC years ago which was classed as out of this world sounding, whether that would be the case today is another thing though.

It makes you wonder if you look at it scientifically though. Over on ASR forum, it's all about measurements and basically all DACs are pretty similar over a certain standard and do the same thing of faithfully reproducing the audio that is on the disc/source. Once they achieve that there is no further they can go really.

But obviously DACs come in all shapes and sizes and designs to achieve the same results. So in terms of sonic reproduction ultimately are people just continually searching for colouration or harmonic distortion that they find pleasing in these DACs?

Maybe some of these fancy Burr Browns or whatever do this better than others and to the human ear just get a tonality that strikes a chord with our sense of realism and taste obviously. Not everyone likes organic-sounding things some want crystal clarity over everything else, and it depends on the other equipment in the chain also.

I know harmonics can be added digitally and I'm sure with technology ever improving it will only continue to improve to be completely indistinguishable from real analogue effects/sound. So if a DAC measures perfectly and is doing its thing they could be added in software before the DAC at the source to make that pleasing sound possible. As technically digital is superior to analogue yet people still love and crave analogue sound.

One quick and crude example of how things can be added.

https://www.digitalspy.com/tech/a356849/airvinyl-ipad-app-brings-vinyl-sound-to-digital-music/

 

[Ruprit]

Very interesting, and I'm with you some of this past legendary equipment is very appealing. I know Sonic Frontiers did a high-end DAC years ago which was classed as out of this world sounding, whether that would be the case today is another thing though.

The Sonic Frontiers SFD-1 MKII? That's still on my list of things to try. SuperBestAudioFriends still speaks very highly of it and I have no doubt it's excellent sounding.

It makes you wonder if you look at it scientifically though. Over on ASR forum, it's all about measurements and basically all DACs are pretty similar over a certain standard and do the same thing of faithfully reproducing the audio that is on the disc/source. Once they achieve that there is no further they can go really.

But obviously DACs come in all shapes and sizes and designs to achieve the same results. So in terms of sonic reproduction ultimately are people just continually searching for colouration or harmonic distortion that they find pleasing in these DACs?

Modern DACs all seem to measure so perfectly that I equate them to a video game high score. It's the kind of thing that's only really relevant to those competing and has no real effect on observers and their enjoyment of the video game, at least it shouldn't.

Take for example the Adcom GDA-700. It was released in 1995 and Stereophile's defining characteristic of the DAC is transparency. The measurements in that review show something that could hold it's own with modern DACs, especially with regards to linearity and power supply noise.

If they're talking about achieving transparency more than two decades ago, isn't it a largely solved issue? Outside that, it's what you described, a company producing a unique sound signature with their DACs.

I know harmonics can be added digitally and I'm sure with technology ever improving it will only continue to improve to be completely indistinguishable from real analogue effects/sound. So if a DAC measures perfectly and is doing its thing they could be added in software before the DAC at the source to make that pleasing sound possible. As technically digital is superior to analogue yet people still love and crave analogue sound.

One quick and crude example of how things can be added.

https://www.digitalspy.com/tech/a356849/airvinyl-ipad-app-brings-vinyl-sound-to-digital-music/

I think you've nailed the growth in popularity of software EQ'ing headphones. Transparent equipment can now be purchased extremely cheaply (Topping D10s) so maybe listeners have gained an interest in experimenting to find a sound that suits them best.