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What creates soundstage in headphones??

Discussion in 'Sound Science' started by noobiiee, Apr 29, 2010.
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  1. bigshot

    That is a hypothesis, not the answer to my question. Are those the two widest extremes that are generally accepted among audiophiles who talk about soundstage in headphones? That is what we are looking for. I don't want to define the answer by the choices of headphones to compare.
     
  2. bigshot
     
    Again. Don't come up with a hypothesis and then look for examples that prove it. That's what the audiophools do. I want examples of extreme wide soundstage and extreme narrow. Observation of the sound only. I won't listen to the suggestion if someone tries to answer why until we've determined which cans we are talking about. Otherwise it's begging the question and defining the result before we ask it.
     
  3. Claritas
    Bigshot, what precisely is your question? Which headphones have you heard to be different is this respect? HD800 or maybe K70x would be a start. It's fine and well for you to talk about speakers, but it's a question about headphones. You need to tell us what different experiences you've had with headphones. Otherwise, this is just a game and only a fool would play it.
     
  4. bigshot
    I am asking for three or so over ear headphones that are generally accepted as having narrow soundstage, and three or so that are generally accepted to have wide soundstage. I don't want theories about why yet. I just want raw observation. I have no dog in this fight. I am curious and I want to find out using logic.

    Ideally, I would like a list of the extremes on both ends. Nominations are open.
     
  5. Claritas
    OK, I'm not playing your game. Let me know if you learn anything from pure reason. Just be sure to see if it works where the rubber meets the road.
     
  6. Strangelove424
     
    My hypotheses are based on experiences with each headphone I have listened to, and based on observations by others made in reviews. If you're looking for people's personal experiences with headphones, that data is everywhere.  The housing hypotheses is my best hypotheses thus far based on the evidence of people's experience, including my own. Examples of the HD800 and K1000 were already mentioned as headstage extremes, and reasons given why there designs would acoustically effect the perception of headstage and imaging. Short of modeling the refraction tendencies of the driver housing with CAD models and physics simulations (including simulations of the ear interaction), you are unlikely to see exacting measurements regarding the acoustic phenomenon occurring within the housing. Acoustics can be complex, and there is no easy way to understand its interaction. I also don't see how it could be possible that the acoustics of the driver housing and its interaction with the ear couldn't have an influence on sound. It's not a question for me of if the driver housing effects acoustics, it's a question of how.
     
  7. castleofargh Contributor
    there certainly is a handful of "famous" big space IEMs(again usually bassy heavy ones):  1+2, ex1000, togo 334, and probably the IE80 as weakest of the list. that would be the top list for what I heard with a clear "out of the head" feeling. I don't think anybody would call those bad for headstage as far as IEM goes.
    except for the ex1000 that is a size 200 for comply, the others are all size 500 for tips. just in that list they have all kinds of drivers, single, multi, BA, dynamic, hybrids(both BA and a dynamic one), some are vented others aren't, some are multi bores others aren't. I guess that can be used to rule out a few things.
     
    but we need to define what we're looking for more precisely, for example, I would put the ER4(or any ety) in a last in class list of its own for headstage. but in fact they go pretty wide on the sides, they just have no feeling of volume in space. as I said before they put all the source as if the band was making a line and you were in the middle of it. it's very clean and precise, you can clearly tell what is where on the line, so maybe that should also count as good headstage depending on our definition?
    to me if sounds never move in front of me, I think the headstage is bad, and if it's all in front of me and not far on the sides I think I'm listening in mono and I also dont like it.
     
    as a personal note, I think the list at the beginning shows impressive(for an IEM) headstage, if I were to talk about what I feel to be the correct headstage I might have gone for a different list. what I mean is sometimes impressive and realistic are 2 different things. I went for the impressive list.
     
  8. money4me247 Contributor

    widest sound stage wld be the hd800. almost universally thought and often claimed to have the best sound stage ever. ive never heard them so i dunno. the akg line k7xx often is stated to have great sound stage. ive heard the q701 and the soundstage was pretty wide compared to everything else. my he560 does positional cues better than my other headphones, but general reviews state that their sound stage is not as good as the hd800. that is all my experience & knowledge on that matter
     
  9. bigshot
    Please just list...
     
    1) Over the ear headphones with narrow soundstage and...
     
    2) over the ear headphones with wide soundstage.
     
    Ones that you have heard, or ones that are generally accepted to be like that because of the way they sound. As extreme examples as you can. But if you add comments about what aspects of those headphones make them that way, it won't help me.
     
    It's interesting that people in Sound Science avoid following the basic process. We are simply OBSERVING here and gathering examples. We aren't drawing conclusions that will direct the sorts of examples we pick.
     
    Please also list manufacturer a bunch of gobbledegook letters make it very hard on me.
     
  10. bigshot
    Wide Sound Stage
     
    Sennheiser HD-800
    AKG K702
     
     
     
    Narrow Sound Stage
     
  11. money4me247 Contributor
     
    From personal experience, the V-Moda LPs have pretty narrow sound stage. Not really sure I can really think of any examples of truly terrible sound stage.
     
    Not sure why you plan on testing sound stage without owning all these headphones as people's subjective impressions of wide & narrow sound stage can vary.
     
  12. Strangelove424
     
    [​IMG]
     
     
    Most of us have been observing our experiences and researching the impressions of others for a while already. We are following the basic process. Just because you're now asking us to make a list here for you specifically doesn't mean we're not already familiar with their sound or atleast the common impression others have of their sound. To say that members in Sound Science shouldn't create a hypotheses based on their own experience and research is contradictory to the very method you are following. In fact, a hypotheses is required in order to have something to test. You cannot start testing anything without a hypotheses. You have not stated your observations, your hypotheses, your null hypotheses, nor the methods you are planning to use for experimentation/testing. I can't imagine how you could have any adherence to the scientific method without doing so. 
     
  13. esldude
     
    Good post there. 
     
    Here is a question useful for approaching this from the other direction perhaps.
     
    Why does headphone listening not create an apparent soundstage, and instead with normal stereo recordings sound inside our head?
     
    Again with the appropriate signal conveyed to your eardrum, there would  be no way for the brain to know otherwise.  So what is different about the signal using headphones, and why could it not be altered to sound just like speakers in a room or music in a space?
     
  14. Folex
    Here is the quick abridged version. 
     
    The more a driver is away from you ear = more soundstage.
     
    Bigger the headphone cups are = More soundstage.
     
    The more open a headphone is = more soundstage.
     
    There is a lot more too it but when judging if a headphone will have sound stage those 3 things will give you a good indication.
     
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