[Gonz]

Divorce outcome is the leading reason alot of people don't want to get married anymore. Especially after they get hit with a divorce, men feel marriage was a rediculous mistake to begin with... and swear to never marry again.

I know one guy, a truly good dude, who loves his ex and kids. He never wanted a divorce, and still bends over backwards for her. He's close to penniless because all of his check goes to alimony and support.

I know another guy who hit a mid-life crisis. He's a middle-aged successful co-owner of a business, and has a good income. He bought a corvette, and got himself a twenty-something trophy wife. After awhile he was suspicious about all these "scrapbook classes" and things she was always going to, so he hired a P.I. who, in short order, produced vivid adult video evidence of the chick's extramarital affairs. When she was confronted, she claimed her plan all along was to take half of everything anyways. Everyone who knows this guy saw it coming.

There seems to be alot of women out there who just want to marry for two years and make off with half or better, of whatever the guy has. But on the other hand, it's not exactly fair that you spend however many years, building a life... and someone gets tossed out in the cold.

Problem is, it seems to me that 100% of the time, the man is tossed out in the cold, one way or another. The courts are severely flawed in this regard.

I have no need for marriage, so I don't worry about it.

 

[KrooLism]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlanY /img/forum/go_quote.gif I understand this sentiment, but like everything else in life, it is a compromise -- specifically, if you don't have a pre-nup, you get the benefit of a warm feeling at the outset, but with a tradeoff: if the marriage doesn't work out and you are the higher income earner, not having a prenup means you will be sodomized financially for the rest of your life. If you make a lot more than your spouse, in some states it is possible to end up paying 40% of your income in alimony for the rest of your life. Add in child support and it can be close to wage slavery. This can have devastating psychological effects, especially if you were the party who was wronged by infidelity, and yet you still have to pay for it, forever. Though I agree with you, it would be a better world if things like prenups weren't necessary precautions.

Everytime I have been screwed by a person, whether it be business or relationship, I know that deep, DEEP down, that I allowed it to happen to myself.

When it comes as a total surprise, ask yourself honestly - was it really?
99.999% of the time, the answer is no.
You'll start to remember the times when something weird happened and you just wrote it off as co-incidence or some other factor.
EG - I used to have a g/f that robbed me - (occasionally taking a $20 bill out of my pocket, nothing sinister). And every time, I always told myself "I must have spent more than I did..." or " XXXX would never do such a thing... i must have lost it."
Then I did a test one day where I deliberately left 6 $20 bills in my wallet, went to the shops to get a newspaper, and sure enough, there was only 5 when i got back.
I was disappointed, but as I have grown older, I also understood why she did what she did. This girl I am talking about has a good heart and if circumstances we're different, well you know...
And when I found out, (don't mind the pun)... but surprisingly, it was no surprise at all. At that moment, I discovered that I have always known, but chose not to believe it. I allowed myself to be deceived.
[size=xx-small]
(and before people flame me for that one example, it is actually one out of hundreds and the first that came to mind)

[/size]

What is the moral of the story...?

If you think, feel, have a slight inkling... that you need a pre-nup in your marriage... don't get married!



People say women have better intuition than men.

No...

Women just know how to follow them better than men.

 

[KrooLism]

... euclid

No disrespect to your folks man.

I am talking about my personal experiences only.

 

[KrooLism]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlanY /img/forum/go_quote.gif I understand this sentiment, but like everything else in life, it is a compromise -- specifically, if you don't have a pre-nup, you get the benefit of a warm feeling at the outset, but with a tradeoff: if the marriage doesn't work out and you are the higher income earner, not having a prenup means you will be sodomized financially for the rest of your life. If you make a lot more than your spouse, in some states it is possible to end up paying 40% of your income in alimony for the rest of your life. Add in child support and it can be close to wage slavery. This can have devastating psychological effects, especially if you were the party who was wronged by infidelity, and yet you still have to pay for it, forever. Though I agree with you, it would be a better world if things like prenups weren't necessary precautions.

Oh - also... in Australia, it's not always that black and white.

You basically have to constantly prove that you are still dependent. I know Aussies have a laid back culture, but the courtroom has zero tolerence to dole bludgers.

 

[1911]

Quote:

Originally Posted by plainsong /img/forum/go_quote.gif I think it's easy for friends, and even close relatives to take sides. Some things sound so black and white don't they? Like the friend of ours, who worked 3 secretarial jobs at once to put her husband through med school... and what did he do? He traded her in for a newer model. He complained she wasn't there enough for him. And you think, what an @ss. Or as above where the woman wants to move to a state where she can really rake in the cash in the settlement. Or in the OP's case where it seems to have been planned out as badly as a soap opera. It can seem like there's no gray area, no other side of the story, and that's where family splits happen, where sides are taken, friendship and love lost. Often for good. But I think that the thing that we have to remember is that there are two sides in every marriage, and unless you're in that marriage, and can be inside their heads every second, that you can't know the full story. Only they know the score. Hopefully the OP will one day come to terms with that and forgive his mom.

nice post...and good advice..

 

[Tuberoller]

This a really sore subject for me. My divorce was emotionally and financially draining. 50/50 laws are generally biased towards women. As are custody laws and general rulings and attitudes of judges and law makers. There was nothing like infidelity in my marriage but I was forced to pay a large settlement as well as split property and pay child support without regards to my ex wife's income. She now makes more money than I do but I still have to pay the same amount. There was absolutely no consideration of the fact that I paid all the bills as well as paid off her student loans etc.... I even had to pay her lawyer. It's always funny to see the attitudes when women have to pay men.

The child custody laws are even more rediculous. Child support enforcement takes the position that every non-custodial parent (that's me) is some type of dead-beat. I got served by a county sheriff to great embarrasment and they refuse to allow any changes to court or hearing dates. The custodial parent doesn't even have to show up to any of these appearances and her word is taken for truth in every instance. I have to pay an "arrears" or back child support until I can prove that I've been paying all along. Not only that, the custodial parent gets this money completely tax-free.

The visitation laws are dumber still. I lived in the same house with my kids until a year ago and raised them from infants( they are now 20, 17 and 13). I would say that I'm far more than a responsible parent. I never once had to offer an explanation to my ex-wife where I was taking my son or anything of the sort. Before I was granted joint custody I had to undergo extensive interviews and evaluations to determine if I was fit. I'm still left to wonder how one becomes unfit by simply being kicked out his home and divorced.

I often joked about married life but I really did enjoy being married and loved being a husband. Now,I would never get married again, ever. Divorce and custody laws truly,utterly suck and they are not fair to men in any way. I'm sure all you have to do is search for a post where I mention how great marriage is and offer advice to guys about to take the leap. Now I would say "Don't do it". The entire institution of marriage ( as currently legally defined) is for women, from beginning to end.

On the up side, I do enjoy being single and really love the freedom. Yeah, I'm broke in that " I have to drink less" kind of way but I can do pretty much whatever I want. I got married at 19 so I'm attempting to make up for lost time and opportunities.

 

[euclid]

my thanks to everyone for contibuting and well wishing.

i do understand there are two sides to this story, its obvious that each embellishes to gain favor, but as the dust is settling from the intial shock my mother's motives have become more apparant. last year (out of nowhere) she said she wanted a divorce because she hates my dad and its everything that he does and its all his fault, then about 3 months later my sister and i found a secret cell phone which was hers and after some digging discovered the password and got into the voicemail, thats how we found out she had been cheating and it was very far along. the guy is her friend from high school and they have been physical since at least 2001. in her desperation to save face she still claims he has nothing to do with it and he is not part of her future.

its all my dads fault.

so meanwhile my entire family has dissolved so she can get a lumpsum of my dads assets, everything that is "rightfully hers" according to stacks of self -help books written by other bitter menopausal women. simultaneously, all we hear from her parents across the country is that its none of the "kids" busness(ill be 25 next month). plus both of my parents have good lawyers. this past year has been like a title fight

anyway i think the true core cause of this divorce is that in a situation where one spouse is the primary breadwinner, it gives the other spouse a huge financial incentive to pull this type of move, even subconciously. when the law protects the poorer party to live the same "lifestyle theyve grown accustomed to" they have a win/win situation. thats crap, my dad did not abuse her, she has had open access to money to spend however she wants, my dad was not cheaing or drinking or anything like that, if she wants to leave b/c the circumstances are so bad then she should be on her own. i'm curious if any states actually handle divorce this way.

 

[kingsqueak]

As in tort reform in general, there is a massive need for reform with regard to matrimonial law as well.

The entire frenzy is driven by greed and revenge. Of course attorneys, being greedy and smelling the money in the water are glad to drive the whole mess onwards. Combine that with activist judges and legislators that are themselves attorneys and you have a system custom made to strip any hard working American of all they have earned to feed the hungry attorneys. They could care less about any of the results, they only want the largest numbers possible so they get the largest fees to line their pockets.

Logic says you end the relationship and leave with what you put into it and not a cent more. Sure this has to be arbitrated to define the value, nothing is all that simple, but when it comes to alimony, that shouldn't even be legal. When it's over, it's over.

"No fault" as in traffic accidents, divorce, etc, is NEVER designed to help anyone but attorneys or in the case of traffic accidents, the insurance companies. "No fault" is just another label for a victimized public.

 

[euclid]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuberoller /img/forum/go_quote.gif This a really sore subject for me. My divorce was emotionally and financially draining. 50/50 laws are generally biased towards women. As are custody laws and general rulings and attitudes of judges and law makers. There was nothing like infidelity in my marriage but I was forced to pay a large settlement as well as split property and pay child support without regards to my ex wife's income. She now makes more money than I do but I still have to pay the same amount. There was absolutely no consideration of the fact that I paid all the bills as well as paid off her student loans etc.... I even had to pay her lawyer. It's always funny to see the attitudes when women have to pay men. The child custody laws are even more rediculous. Child support enforcement takes the position that every non-custodial parent (that's me) is some type of dead-beat. I got served by a county sheriff to great embarrasment and they refuse to allow any changes to court or hearing dates. The custodial parent doesn't even have to show up to any of these appearances and her word is taken for truth in every instance. I have to pay an "arrears" or back child support until I can prove that I've been paying all along. Not only that, the custodial parent gets this money completely tax-free. The visitation laws are dumber still. I lived in the same house with my kids until a year ago and raised them from infants( they are now 20, 17 and 13). I would say that I'm far more than a responsible parent. I never once had to offer an explanation to my ex-wife where I was taking my son or anything of the sort. Before I was granted joint custody I had to undergo extensive interviews and evaluations to determine if I was fit. I'm still left to wonder how one becomes unfit by simply being kicked out his home and divorced. I often joked about married life but I really did enjoy being married and loved being a husband. Now,I would never get married again, ever. Divorce and custody laws truly,utterly suck and they are not fair to men in any way. I'm sure all you have to do is search for a post where I mention how great marriage is and offer advice to guys about to take the leap. Now I would say "Don't do it". The entire institution of marriage ( as currently legally defined) is for women, from beginning to end. On the up side, I do enjoy being single and really love the freedom. Yeah, I'm broke in that " I have to drink less" kind of way but I can do pretty much whatever I want. I got married at 19 so I'm attempting to make up for lost time and opportunities.

i'm really sorry to hear about that, unfortunatly i am growing a deep-seeded distrust for women and doubt i will ever be able to have an honest and fair marrage. they are still hot though, if that changes ill be really worried

 

[DanG]

Euclid, I'm very sorry to hear about what you and your family are going through. I hope it all works out for the best somehow, whatever the "best" may be.

 

[Tuberoller]

Euclid,

As unfair as this has all been to your family, especially your Dad, I hate to see you take sides. My oldest daughter got caught up in the taking sides thing and it has hurt us all. At first she took her mom's side mainly because I refused to bad-mouth her mom in front of her and her siblings. Now she hates( or thinks she does) her mother since she found out about all the lies that have been told about me. I do not encourage this and feel it is best that you attempt to remain neutral. Your Mom is still your Mom and regardless of how she feels about your Dad, she likely still needs the love and support of her children. I know how tough that must be but it is simply not in your best interest to take sides. I know you still love your mom and I think it's ok to tell her how much you disapprove of what she has done while letting her know that you still love her.

My ex likely thought the guy she started seeing when we first seperated was the man of her dreams. She quickly found that this nit-wit wanted to date a married woman so there would be no strings because he was married too. Now that she can't find herself a decent guy, she's bitter and angry with me because I seem to be enjoying myself so much. That's typically how it works, especially with women. Now matter how good they have it, they want to see how the other side lives, only to find that things weren't so bad after all. I really wish my ex would find the man of her dreams so she'd forget about me and leave me alone.

 

[wanderman]

sorry man.

 

[plainsong]

Wow, I wandered into the Men Only section. Remember she's the only mom you have, mmmkay?

I wouldn't be so quick to judge what a Housewife would be rightfully entitled to. Regardless of how easy you think it is, it is a job, and it is certainly possible that a housewife would be entitled to compensation. That's the opposite of utter crap.

I know you're angry at your mom, but please try to remember she raised you, and that it wasn't easy?

And please guys, let's keep the whole woman hating vibe down please? I know, this woman did that to you and that woman did that, and we all have a motivation to do the other... I realize that some person may have done something to you, but there are in fact two sides to every story, and certainly what one woman does does not speak for all womankind?

Or should I counter with, well this guy did this, and that guy did that, or poor him with his 5 mistresses and now he has to pay alimoney, oh my heart bleeds for him, he's only sorry he was caught. The cycle goes on, everybody has been hurt by someone.

I don't buy the theories here that all women are this that or the other. If it is true of women, it is certainly true of men as well. People are people, ya know?

I hope you don't throw away the only mom you had over this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by euclid /img/forum/go_quote.gif my thanks to everyone for contibuting and well wishing. i do understand there are two sides to this story, its obvious that each embellishes to gain favor, but as the dust is settling from the intial shock my mother's motives have become more apparant. last year (out of nowhere) she said she wanted a divorce because she hates my dad and its everything that he does and its all his fault, then about 3 months later my sister and i found a secret cell phone which was hers and after some digging discovered the password and got into the voicemail, thats how we found out she had been cheating and it was very far along. the guy is her friend from high school and they have been physical since at least 2001. in her desperation to save face she still claims he has nothing to do with it and he is not part of her future. its all my dads fault. so meanwhile my entire family has dissolved so she can get a lumpsum of my dads assets, everything that is "rightfully hers" according to stacks of self -help books written by other bitter menopausal women. simultaneously, all we hear from her parents across the country is that its none of the "kids" busness(ill be 25 next month). plus both of my parents have good lawyers. this past year has been like a title fight anyway i think the true core cause of this divorce is that in a situation where one spouse is the primary breadwinner, it gives the other spouse a huge financial incentive to pull this type of move, even subconciously. when the law protects the poorer party to live the same "lifestyle theyve grown accustomed to" they have a win/win situation. thats crap, my dad did not abuse her, she has had open access to money to spend however she wants, my dad was not cheaing or drinking or anything like that, if she wants to leave b/c the circumstances are so bad then she should be on her own. i'm curious if any states actually handle divorce this way.

 

[AlanY]

Quote:

Originally Posted by plainsong /img/forum/go_quote.gif And please guys, let's keep the whole woman hating vibe down please?

I don't think people are necessarily expressing anger at women. They're just expressing anger at the way the current matrimonial system tends to be biased, not just in women's favor, though that is a strong element of it, but also biased against individuals who genuinely put an effort into the marriage and do not engage in wrongdoing.

Alimony made a lot more sense before the no-fault divorce reform movement, because evidence of infidelity could be used to reduce (almost never eliminate though) awards, which is only fair based on the old equity idea in law that one should not be financially rewarded for wrongdoing. Now there is a perverse economic incentive for couples with lopsided incomes to divorce. This situation really needs fixing. Also, there is a lot of statistical evidence that in situations where the woman earns more money, palimony is much more rarely awarded. This is similar to the child custody situation, which no one pretends is designed to be fair between the sexes. Not to mention, the general idea of lifelong "pensions" for past situations has really been falling out of favor in the US. Alimony is almost an anachronism as it currently exists.

There will never be any perfect solutions to divorce, but the current situation seriously needs reform.

 

[plainsong]

I wanted to make my plea that it's possible to get hurt by a woman and just as possible to be hurt by a man, but I didn't want to minimize the very real pain of someone going through something like this.

My plea can be summed up as: if you're not all evil, then neither are we. May you find someone that is your other half when you're least expecting it.

But the no fault divorce idea just seems like the t-shirt that's one size fits most. Or rather, in an attempt to make one of those, they instead made a one size fits some.

But I also think that the lawyers play a huge part of this, for better or worse, pardon the pun. One such friend of the family was nicknamed The Lady Killer before she became a judge. She always took on these cases where the mom was plainly bad news, and she felt it important in a state where custody laws favor mom no matter what.

As for alimoney and such, it's such an individual thing, there can't possibly be a solution for all divorces.