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What are the arguments against double blind tests (incl. ABX)?

Discussion in 'Sound Science' started by skamp, Mar 7, 2012.
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  1. Draygonn

    :confused: I didn't say memory loss was an issue.
     
  2. khaos974
    Quote:

    The wiki article on ultrasound presents the following *sourced* argument:
     
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    So it wouldn't me absurd to think that even if you can't hear in ABX, ultrasounds may have a perceivable effect.
    Of course, any decently designed audio equipment wouldn't suffer from such an issue.
     
     
  3. EthanWiner
    Quote:
     
    Do you have any idea how loud 155 dB is? That's 35 dB louder than the volume at which you cover your ears because of the pain. Do you know how much louder a 35 dB difference is? [​IMG]
     
    --Ethan
     
  4. mikeaj
    As an extreme first test, anybody want to ABX a 24-bit / 192 kHz recording with the music at like -80 dB and some ultrasonics thrown in at close to 0 dB, compared to just the music at -80 dB?  lol
     
    I'm claiming no responsibility for any fried tweeters or headphones in relation to any suggestion made above.  [​IMG]
     
  5. khaos974
    Quote:

    There's also a lower limit at 70 dB and 100 dB a bit later in the sentence, even if the subject is of little relevance for audio.
    The point I was wondering is IF a continuous 25 kHz sin at high level (say 90 dB) may have a measurable effect long term, would a human be able to detect it  in the classical ABX conditions?
     
     
  6. Prog Rock Man


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    Quote:



    You said "have to rely less on memory", so memory loss was a bad description, but I still do not think that memory is a problem in ABX. Imagine telling someone who has finished a sighted audition that what they heard was inaccurate as they cannot remember sound for any great length of time. The switching in the auditions I have been to has been pretty much instant with banks of speakers to a few minutes with amps and CDPs. Memory was never raised as an issue.
     
  7. EthanWiner
    Quote:

    I've never tested that specifically at that SPL, but I'm pretty sure it would not be noticed or otherwise perceived.
     
    Why don't you try it? Do you have loudspeakers (or headphones) that are known to have sufficient output that at that high a frequency?
     
    --Ethan
     
  8. liamstrain
    Based on a recent interaction in a different discussion - we have now (apparently) gotten to the point where the subjectivists can just vaguely refer to the "the well discussed problems with ABX testing" in dismissing them out of hand - without actually defining what the problems are, much less whether they apply to the test in question. 
     
    Declining to discuss here, naturally - and just saying "do a search" when questioned further. 
     
    Very frustrating. 
     
  9. TheAttorney
     
    Yep, you're right. It's very frustrating. These threads come and go, and each time there's some interesting food for thought, and each time it ends up stalemate. Which is why I will join the all the other people and not contribute to such threads any more. Ever! The frustrating thing for me is my earlier quote below. This probably matches the frustration of the scientists expecting scientific proof for everything. The topic is inherently interesting, but I'm past caring now. Time to move on.
     
    "One argument against DBT/ABX testing is that any such arguments are AUTOMATICALLY and IMMEDIATELY shot down in flames, such that the arguments against ABX testing never get to be properly investigated by the very people skilled enough to do anything about it."
     
  10. Mischa23v
    I agree, it got very frustrating indeed. However, when you have a site as big as head-fi, that includes people’s from all ages, and all kinds of different backgrounds. You’re bound to get some people who are young, uneducated, biased, trolls, or just not well informed. Hence, asking people to do more research and staying out of it is probably the best approach.
     
     
     
     
    Quote:


     
     
  11. liamstrain
    I don't see how that could ever be considered the best approach for anything. It's a baseless assertion, used to dismiss a valuable tool (one of the few we have in this field), then walked away from as a fait accompli, rather than a useful discussion. Better to have said nothing because now are you not only adding nothing, you are compounding a false "wisdom" that someone new to the field may take to be true on its face, when that is clearly not the case. 
     
    It is no different from my saying "Solid state amps are never good, per the well discussed reasons. Do a search if you don't believe me."

    Useless. 
     
  12. Mischa23v
     
    I agree, but then again do you think arguing with a stubborn, uninformed, 15 year old teenager might lead to different results? If there is absolutely nothing to gain from a discussion then why bother? Seriously though, sometimes there is just no point. It’s not about winning or losing, at least not in my opinion.
     


     
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  13. Prog Rock Man
    FWIW, I think we will learn more about hifi and sound quality by working with the results of blind tests rather ignoring the results that do not suit or dismissing the whole proceedure.
     
  14. liamstrain
    If I thought the person I was referring to was a child, I'd agree... this was a longstanding adult member. 
     
    Also, I don't see these things as winning or losing ... the truth matters. I'll happily lose, if the end result is a more accurate understanding. But that's just me. I have a very hard time when people wantonly dismiss facts and the tools used to determine them without even the courtesy of explaining their reasons for doing so. 
     
  15. skamp

    What do you mean, "now"? I'd say their attitude is fairly well documented :wink:
     
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