[Ableza]

  I have read the argument that even if the noise is inaudible, its presence does degrade the overall sound quality. I have no opinion one way or another, but it does seem kind of kooky. 

Again, refer to my sig line.  Noise that is below the level of audibility exists in every system.  It does not matter if one cannot hear it.
 
A quote I've seen attributed to audio design guru Henry Kloss: "Everything that matters can be measured, but not everything that can be measured matters."

 

[GearMe]

FTFY

Thanks -- but they're actually sure they can!

And...if you can't, then there's something wrong with (insert here - your ears, your equipment, all of the above, yada, yada)

 

[madwolfa]

  Again, refer to my sig line.  Noise that is below the level of audibility exists in every system.  It does not matter if one cannot hear it.

 
There was this guy around here who was genuinely worried about some noise on high gain and volume at max.

 

[rsnblmn]

I'm sure it's been posted many times before in other threads, but I just ran across this blog post on jitter which has a pretty interesting experiment. Assuming the samples are fairly accurate, it does put some perspective on how much "measurable" matters in practice. The jitter added here should be way higher than anything other than a severely broken system would suffer from, but realistically, the audible differences are pretty small. The sine wave examples are pretty easy to hear, but the music ones are a lot harder.
 
http://www.sereneaudio.com/blog/what-does-jitter-sound-like
 
(Granted, I'm on my laptop at the moment and have only listened with cheapie earbuds...I'll have to try listening on my Bimby later when I have time.)

 

[johnjen]

 
Very interesting, JJ, thanks.
 
Regarding optical, was it straight Toslink from a laptop or some fancier box? My understanding is that generic laptops that provide optical out choose parts on a 'race to the bottom' quality criteria, so this might have skewed results against optical.
 
Since you've pretty much sampled it all, I'd love to hear (if you ever get the chance) your experience with optical out from streamers like Auralic Aries (which has AES3, or Mini), RPi&Digi+ or Sonicorbiter SE. I would suspect results to be better than plain out from a Mac. All of these options can be used with Ethernet in and Optical out, in principle not unlike the ProAudio stuff above. I would expect that the true differentiator will rest on the quality of the output transceiver (and clocks), which may different between a Mac, an Aries, a Digi+ or a Sonicorbiter...

The optical feed was straight from my Mac Pro to my DAC using the Lifatec cable with no adapters.
 
If I ever get a streamer, or just a chance to play with one I might try it.
But, thus far the difference in SQ between optical (or USB, etc.) and these RedNet boxes to AES3 is just getting wider and wider as it continues to settle in.
As in it's no contest…
 
JJ

 

[johnjen]

You guys are overestimating the complexity of audio streaming. Modern USB implementations are much more complex and advanced than any of the 40 year old S/PDIF audio standards.

TL;DR - USB is just fine for audio. There's nothing special there.

I can understand why you would believe this.
 
But if you ever get a chance to hear a direct comparison, even to a tweaked USB setup (which can make significant improvements), to an ethernet to AES3 or even SPDIF, you just might rethink that assessment.
 
JJ

 

[cbl117]

  I can understand why you would believe this.
 
But if you ever get a chance to hear a direct comparison, even to a tweaked USB setup (which can make significant improvements), to an ethernet to AES3 or even SPDIF, you just might rethink that assessment.
 
JJ

what does a tweak USB setup imply?

 

[johnjen]

 
what does a tweak USB setup imply?

It ranges from simply using better USB cables to multiple re-clockers/de-crapifiers/isolators, even adding digital audio format converters etc. with many variations in between.
My setup uses 2-Wyrds with a 6" jumper between them and a Schiit Pyst USB cable to feed this stack and an AudioQuest Coffee USB cable feeding into my DAC.
And the USB cables were cooked on an industrial strength cable cooker as well, which helped a whole bunch.
 
JJ

 

[madwolfa]

  But if you ever get a chance to hear a direct comparison, even to a tweaked USB setup (which can make significant improvements), to an ethernet to AES3 or even SPDIF, you just might rethink that assessment.

 
I have used S/PDIF out of a professional audio interface with either $150 glass Toslink or expensive coaxial for a long time.
 
I'm now using a Schiit Gen2 USB input with a $5 printer cable and find it at least as good.
 
PS: Cable cooker? Seriously?

 

[johnjen]

   
I have used S/PDIF out of a professional audio interface with either $150 glass Toslink or expensive coaxial for a long time.
 
I'm now using a Schiit Gen2 USB input with a $5 printer cable and find it at least as good.
 
PS: Cable cooker? Seriously?

So if using those methods of sending digital audio work for you that's wonderful!
But in my system I have noted significant improvements, that are easily audible culminating in my recent experiments using the RedNet boxes, which handily eclipses any USB method I have used.
 
Yes, seriously!
I have proved (to myself and to others) that the results of applying this 'process' of cooking my cables (ac power, interconnects, USB, coax, etc) is 'Better', time and time again, and on multiple different types of cables as well, over the course of several years that I have been fussing with it.
 
JJ

 

[cbl117]

It ranges from simply using better USB cables to multiple re-clockers/de-crapifiers/isolators, even adding digital audio format converters etc. with many variations in between.
My setup uses 2-Wyrds with a 6" jumper between them and a Schiit Pyst USB cable to feed this stack and an AudioQuest Coffee USB cable feeding into my DAC.
And the USB cables were cooked on an industrial strength cable cooker as well, which helped a whole bunch.

JJ

I have one wyrd now and I noticed an improvement right away. Did you find the second made a worthwhile improvement? Also any rationale to how you picked whether pyst or AQ USB cables went before or after wyrd?

 

[mbusby]

   
There was this guy around here who was genuinely worried about some noise on high gain and volume at max.

 
"Doctor, doctor, it hurts when I do this..."
 
"Well.... don't do that."

 

[johnjen]

I have one wyrd now and I noticed an improvement right away. Did you find the second made a worthwhile improvement? Also any rationale to how you picked whether pyst or AQ USB cables went before or after wyrd?

Yes the 2nd Wyrd noticeably helped, especially in the soundstage with sharper focus in all aspects, (indivdual 'voices', the acoustic space itself, and the stability of the entire image).
 
I got the AQ Coffee when I purchased the 1st Wyrd and used also used an 8' USB cable I had in my pile of cables.
But what made as significant a contribution to the end results was cooking these USB cables.
And yes I did implement them separately after the Wyrd was fully settled in.
 
Then when I added the 2nd Wyrd I also added the $4.95 6" USB interconnect cable and the Pyst USB cable.
The Pyst ticked off all those aspects which say 'Audio' grade to me, namely silver cladded wire and the power and signal wires were separated from each other.
AND it was $20. 

 
And the 6" 'jumper' cable was because it was as short as I could find, well that and a friend had already been using them and reported wonderful SQ (thanks Big Poppa).  This ranks right up there with the akiko stick saga only a whole lot cheaper…

 
And again these cables were cooked as well, as this process does make a significant contribution to the overall improvement of this USB upgrade, at least in my experience, and others as well.
 
JJ

 

[lukeap69]

How do you cook a cable? This is a genuine question.

 

[madwolfa]

I like my cables medium-rare.