What a long, strange trip it's been -- (Robert Hunter)
Mar 10, 2016 at 8:37 AM Post #496 of 14,563
  ... because that way fooled people can say whatever they like ...
 
...so of course we'll have a few guys who just want to show off. and of course we have those who are so ignorant that they don't even know that they don't know. we also have the new born objectivists, who tend to be radicalised for a few years.

You nicely summed up the issues I have with the sound science forum and that other forum out there that claims to be scienced-centered.
 
(1) It's a small step to go from thinking someone is fooled to someone is a fool (audiophool, anyone?  who coined that term?)
(2) The showoffs who make claims that I can tell are false but would take too much effort to refute (they seem to have more online time than I do.  How is that possible?)
(3) Very little attempt to move the science-ignorant or science-agnostic towards  more objective view point without being condescending, rude or downright hostile (audiophools again).
(4) The "enthusiam" of some of the objectivists is difficult to deal with.
 
I've been called a living Occam's Razor and I can't stand the "science" forums.  Renaming them all to "Objectivist forums" would be a major boon because then some actual science might appear to support the objectivist position.
 
Mar 10, 2016 at 9:09 AM Post #497 of 14,563
Phenomenology has a lot to tell us about how audio and visual perception works, especially when discussing home playback equipment.  It is a field too often ignored.
 
(edited to correct horrendous spelling errors!)
 
Mar 10, 2016 at 9:56 AM Post #498 of 14,563
But, as I've argued many times, things like ABX tests are perfectly valid methods to conduct research or to explore possible causes for observed effects, but they are entirely inappropriate ways to choose or evaluate audio equipment.  We experience audio with all of our senses.  The user experience is all-encompassing, nit purely auditory.


I'm not sure I follow what you're saying. Are you referring to psychological factors like "feeling stress while doing a test"? Or something else? Maybe several other factors? Your last sentence makes it sort of confusing since listening is definitely done with the ears and doesn't involve the other senses, except in how it affects one's mood, state of mind, etc. This is an honest question. I normally find myself agreeing very strongly with most of your posts.

Brian.
 
Mar 10, 2016 at 10:06 AM Post #499 of 14,563
I'm not sure I follow what you're saying. Are you referring to psychological factors like "feeling stress while doing a test"? Or something else? Maybe several other factors? Your last sentence makes it sort of confusing since listening is definitely done with the ears and doesn't involve the other senses, except in how it affects one's mood, state of mind, etc. This is an honest question. I normally find myself agreeing very strongly with most of your posts.

Brian.

What I mean is sitting in your home listening to music is a holistic experience, it is not just done with your ears.  All of your senses are in play, as are all of your moods, feelings, fatigue level, etc.  Everything that makes up your personal perception system.  If you "like" the looks of something, if you sit and admire its beauty as you listen, if you "believe" in your system, this can actually affect your perception more than specific subtleties in the audio reproduction.  It is about being happy and satisfied with the overall experience.  So what I mean is an A/B test can certainly help a designer or an experimenter determine a possible cause for an audio anomaly, but it is often unimportant to the actual overall experience of enjoying your music system in your home
 
Mar 10, 2016 at 12:13 PM Post #500 of 14,563
  Phenomenology has a lot to tell us about how audio and visual percept works, especially when discussing home playback equipment.  It is a filed too often ignored.


My wife is literally a philosopher (ethics is her thing).  OMG! heard so much about phenomenology when she was in grad school.
 
Philosophy of science is also an interesting field from this POV.
 
Mar 10, 2016 at 5:58 PM Post #501 of 14,563
jeez now I'm really confused, "those Objectivists" infuriate because they say much of reported perception of music listening, especially "audiophile reviewer" style comments about which equipment feature or failing is causing what "sound" is subject to lots of internal neural state?
 
AND they're naïve for not recognizing, allowing for the influence of all of that internal state, basic perceptual psychology?
 
 
so far all I've done is call into question the logic of a few anecdotes or the implications of marketing catch phrases, largely based on accepted engineering, S/N, Psychoacoustic textbook thresholds
 
haven't seen much discussion of the merits of my augments, any of the EE, Psychoacoutics, or even just logic 
 
Mar 10, 2016 at 6:28 PM Post #502 of 14,563
Yikes!  Some heavy Schiit going on here.  Even an attack on Baldr.  Damn it.
 
Personally, I am an engineer and a HP enthusiast.  I enjoy learning new things, all the time.  But when I log-on to Head-Fi, I want to learn about new products, listeners' experiences with them, how they sound, upcoming meets.  You know, the community thing.  I really don't need the engineering experience.  I already got that, and would prefer to separate the two.
 
There's plenty of the engineering stuff over on the pirate site.
 
IMHO and YMMV as always.
RCBinTN
 
Mar 10, 2016 at 6:46 PM Post #503 of 14,563
  jeez now I'm really confused, "those Objectivists" infuriate because they say much of reported perception of music listening, especially "audiophile reviewer" style comments about which equipment feature or failing is causing what "sound" is subject to lots of internal neural state?
 
AND they're naïve for not recognizing, allowing for the influence of all of that internal state, basic perceptual psychology?
 
 
so far all I've done is call into question the logic of a few anecdotes or the implications of marketing catch phrases, largely based on accepted engineering, S/N, Psychoacoustic textbook thresholds
 
haven't seen much discussion of the merits of my augments, any of the EE, Psychoacoutics, or even just logic 

 
The notion that one's mental/emotional/neural state is not a major part of how one experiences anything in life is farcical.
 
That state changes constantly.
 
The same piece of music on the same gear in the same location can be involving and engrossing and emotional one day and irritating to the point of distraction another.
 
The gear didn't suddenly start measuring differently and the fundamental laws of the universe didn't suddenly get re-written - what changed was the person's state of being.
 
Instruments, measurements and theories do not experience music; ergo they're highly marginal tools for anything other than comparisons to themselves.  I'd rather spend money on something that I actually enjoy and that measures poorly or goes against accepted theory, that something that's completely explicable but emotionally dead.  For example, by almost every technical measure my Porsche 911 was a more competent and capable car than my current Aston Martin (and the Porsche was significantly less expensive).
 
Guess what?
 
The Porsche got sold because, when it came down to it, I simply enjoyed the Aston Martin more.
 
Mar 10, 2016 at 6:52 PM Post #504 of 14,563
 Yikes!  Some heavy Schiit going on here.  Even an attack on Baldr.  Damn it.

"arguments with some reasoning" is not an attack on anyone - there are many ways to enjoy music listening, and many motivations for cutting that short by hanging here on a forum talking with a broad spectrum of people generally interested in related subjects
 
 
I respect Mike enough to not even have worried that he would censor me for cool headed, objective statements - the fact that he had to comment at all is I expect due to pm's from "fanboys" worried that he was being dissed
 
maybe few of you have had the experience but I would think it might help to consider the expected interaction between gray bearded engineers at a industry seminar on Mixed Signal engineering
 
if any want a somewhat larger perspective on my "naïve objectivism", or Mike's careful avoidance of ad hominem just search the http://www.head-fi.org/t/716822/why-24-bit-audio-and-anything-over-48k-is-not-only-worthless-but-bad-for-music for post in this thread by jcx: http://www.head-fi.org/newsearch/?search=&resultSortingPreference=recency&byuser=jcx&output=posts&sdate=0&newer=1&type=all&containingthread%5B0%5D=716822&advanced=1
 
Mar 10, 2016 at 6:57 PM Post #505 of 14,563
Something I love to say in these sorts of discussions:  As an engineer, I can measure and describe everything about an acoustic wave form.  I can measure and describe everything about an electrical signal.  I can measure and describe the performance of any bit of electronics and any inert object involved in creating and transmitting a signal chain as well as the emergent behavior of those components once they are connected together.  But I can neither measure nor describe anything that is going on inside an individual user's body and brain, and that is where perception is created. 
 
Mar 10, 2016 at 7:08 PM Post #506 of 14,563
  jeez now I'm really confused, "those Objectivists" infuriate because 

 
...they try and force on others what is "true" and what is "not true". 
 
Often mis-attritubted, as the quote it was from an 1899 edition of Punch Magazine, but still humorous today. It would only need minor changes to be relevant.
 

 
Mar 10, 2016 at 7:15 PM Post #507 of 14,563
   
...they try and force on others what is "true" and what is "not true". 

Which is why I refuse to participate in the so-called "sound science" threads.  When opinions masquerade as facts and when dogma reigns over process, that is not science.
 
Mar 10, 2016 at 7:34 PM Post #508 of 14,563
  "hanging here on a forum talking with a broad spectrum of people generally interested in related subjects..."
 

 
Exactly what I appreciate about Head-Fi.  Thx for your perspective.
 
Mar 10, 2016 at 7:37 PM Post #509 of 14,563
Something I love to say in these sorts of discussions:  As an engineer, I can measure and describe everything about an acoustic wave form.  I can measure and describe everything about an electrical signal.  I can measure and describe the performance of any bit of electronics and any inert object involved in creating and transmitting a signal chain as well as the emergent behavior of those components once they are connected together.  But I can neither measure nor describe anything that is going on inside an individual user's body and brain, and that is where perception is created. 
Ok so I really shouldn't fan the flames here but, really?
Do you believe you can "measure and describe everything about an electrical signal" and "As an engineer, I can measure and describe everything about an acoustic wave form." (my emphasis)

Really?
Everything?
I am truly astounded…

JJ
ps and it isn't my intent to focus this at you personally, but rather the mindset behind it…
 
Mar 10, 2016 at 7:57 PM Post #510 of 14,563
  What I mean is sitting in your home listening to music is a holistic experience, it is not just done with your ears.  All of your senses are in play, as are all of your moods, feelings, fatigue level, etc.  Everything that makes up your personal perception system.  If you "like" the looks of something, if you sit and admire its beauty as you listen, if you "believe" in your system, this can actually affect your perception more than specific subtleties in the audio reproduction.  It is about being happy and satisfied with the overall experience.  So what I mean is an A/B test can certainly help a designer or an experimenter determine a possible cause for an audio anomaly, but it is often unimportant to the actual overall experience of enjoying your music system in your home

I totally agree but maybe people can imagine this even better thinking about a more dynamically holistic experience such as live music. You may go to a concert tired or mad or pumped, etc. You may already have an idea of how it will sound based on location, band, past experience, etc. You may not have an idea. You may have intense odors like smoke, people bumping you, dancing going on (you may be dancing), a light show, sense of community, a date that you are with (the date may be comfortable or uncomfortable, the date may have opinions about the concert or the sound quality), etc.. All these impact your mood and your "attention to music" and your overall experience of hearing. So many factors. Not measurable, but impactful.
 

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