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What a long, strange trip it's been -- (Robert Hunter)

Discussion in 'Mike Moffat (Baldr)' started by baldr, Oct 13, 2015.
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  1. Don Hills
    30 dB? Which graphs are you looking at? These ones?
    Because they both show, for example, 5 to 6 dB slope from -70dBFS to -80dBFS. Remember to read the righthand scale on Amir's graph. He re-scaled to match the scale on AtomicBob's graph.
  2. madwolfa
    I've only looked at the graphs showed few posts above. There's more than 20dB (~23dB) variation between -70dBFS and -80dBFS in his graph. I'm not sure why just changing the scale makes it look entirely different?

    EDIT: OK, righthand scale. I get it now (I think).
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2018
  3. artur9

    There's always the question around whether the right thing is being measured.

    Internet example. My download speed is something like 50Mb/s, fast enough to stream a full quality BluRay movie with all the fixings. So how come my internet pages don't load in my browser in full BluRay quality almost instantly? Because I'm measuring the wrong thing.
  4. DoubleIPA
    My apologies to the lot of you as I contributed to the noise earlier. I just felt the posts on the measurements should have been handled differently than those that posted them.

    Anyway, I found some links to 2 articles I think are worth reading if you're into the ladder dacs. They're long, but informative and while I can't say how accurate they are, they seem to be quite clear and have supported references.



    Last edited: Feb 9, 2018
    NoahFence likes this.
  5. amirm
    One of the main reason to measure is to see if the device is doing what it is supposed to be doing. As Mike explained, the Analog Devices DAC they are using has far better performance than measurements we are seeing. As noted, the problem is seen in both my measurements and that of AtomicBob. If Schiit folks would be kind enough to measure and confirm the results on one of their boxes, we could get to the end of this. No reason to have a DAC perform less well than what its core engine is capable of performing. As it is, we are far short of meeting CD's 16-bit requirement. Surely no one is happy about that.

    If the results are what they are, we can create audible test cases for it.

    As to your ISP example, 2-D Blu-ray is encoded using variable rate for video. Peak data rate for audio+video can be as high as 48 mbit/sec. So I would not be too sure that even your 50 mbit/sec link would work for it anyway. :D
    robertbudding and D2Girls like this.
  6. amirm
    Well, I read through the first one and I can tell there are mistakes in it. This is one example:

    "This why we can hear 10 or 20dB "into the noise", while a measurement instrument cannot. "

    This is actually completely backward. Using high number of samples in our FFT, we get what is called "FFT gain." With just 32K samples, we have a gain of roughly 32 dB. This allows us our instruments to dig deep, really deep down to astonishing -150 dB or even higher. Our hearing range has a maximum of 116 dB in mid-frequencies. We can easily dig and find such artifacts.

    Here is an example from measurements of BiFrost Multibit:


    Notice how we are measuring down to -140 dB. -144 is the noise floor of a 24 bit system! No way is our hardware able to measure, or our DAC in question that good. Yet we have such data. It is the power of signal processing that allows us to go so low.

    I have measured tiniest of changes in systems using my analyzer. Example is the effect of an optical isolator for Ethernet, different length USB cables, etc. If tested by ear without knowledge, people would completely fail to hear these differences. Yet our instruments have no trouble measuring their differences.

    Author says he doesn't know how noise shaping works either. This is one of the easiest concepts in psychoacoustics and signal processing.
  7. DoubleIPA
    Contact the author then and explain it to him. He even states he's open to hear from someone who understands the concepts better then him.
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2018
  8. Baldr
    @amirm, even though you have the (hopefully improving) diplomacy of a spanish inquisition tribunal - at least you are a measurebator (sorry for that shameless steal), are cordial, and it seems that you want to be helpful to all. Hopefully I am right.

    That said, time to lighten this joint up! @robertbudding and @TenMoonsNorth you have little to no good to say about anyone; @spruce music, not only do you have a near negative signal/slop ratio, you denigrate other head-fi users and even my competitors in this, my avocation and hobby. It is one thing to badmouth me - I can take care of myself. When its gets beyond me, it is inexcusable.

    As I have repeatedly stated, I loathe censorship. You, however, have worked hard to earn it. The three of you are gone; get off my goddam lawn........
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2018
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  9. johnjen

    Enjoyment comes in all sorts of colors and flavors, shapes and sizes.
    And if you can't laugh at and with yourself, along with everybody else (assuming of course it actually IS funny) then I figure life is devoid of much of the humor that acts as a natural counterbalance.

    To quote a wise saying to mull over, "The hidden harmony is found with joy, while the obvious brings indifference."

    Just my 2¢

  10. MWSVette

    ScubaMan2017, yonson, stled and 2 others like this.
  11. Ali-Pacha
    We have a lot of things here :
    - measurements from one side only, with comparison to other DAC(s) to say it's atrocious / bad engineering (and indeed it looks like it to the newbie I am)
    - no explanations about the meaning of those different measurements
    - more specifically, invocations of measurements from third party (atomicbob), without real comparison / explanations about how they are comparable, how they are different, and why "subjective" conclusions look different
    - do those measurements mean bad engineering, obvious listening flaws, obvious differences between delta-sigma and R2R techs, broken unit, others...?
    - usual blabbering / opinions entitling from more or less hardcore subjobjectivist or more or less fanboys / haters

    I know it's hard-to-extremely-boring for those who have been knowing their stuff for long time to explain clearly what it is all about to ignorants.
    The road to grumpiness and extremely dry reactions is broad and straight...I'm reading Stax mafia's stuff almost every day, you know what I mean :D

    But anyway, how about make all this educational ? Could improve S/N rate of this thread :)

  12. FLTWS
    Your right! Sorry, both threads have been so active the past 2 days I got confused.
    bosiemoncrieff likes this.
  13. D2Girls
    They were touched by the hammer of god
    I wonder, does mike liken himself to the thunder god himself? Being so much of his product is named after Norse mythology...
  14. GearMe
    Hmmm...some of us might think the Opera discussion belongs on the other thread and would prefer a Blues/Jazz/Classic Rock discussion!

    The REAL beauty of this thread is the near total lack of 'moderating'! Because of Mike's philosophy on this topic, we are free to engage in civilized, yet spirited, discussions about whatever we choose to; which more or less centers on Music, Audio Equipment, Opera (ugh), Opera Paintings (UGH), etc. :ksc75smile:

    However, we can certainly up the Cats & VU Meters to balance out all this high-brow stuff!

    Last edited: Feb 9, 2018
  15. Letmebefrank
    Looks like this dude is just going through and responding to every post as he reads it without actually reading everything first.
    HumanFly likes this.
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