What a long, strange trip it's been -- (Robert Hunter)
post-14029465
Post #6,751 of 12,441

Ableza

Headphoneus Supremus
Joined
Jan 18, 2014
Messages
3,749
Reaction score
10,954
Location
Valley of the Sun
Joined
Jan 18, 2014
Location
Valley of the Sun
Posts
3,749
Likes
10,954
post-14029480
Post #6,752 of 12,441

Ableza

Headphoneus Supremus
Joined
Jan 18, 2014
Messages
3,749
Reaction score
10,954
Location
Valley of the Sun
Joined
Jan 18, 2014
Location
Valley of the Sun
Posts
3,749
Likes
10,954
It doesn't matter to you but it does matter to other people.
My point is it shouldn't matter. If the "issues" exist they are inaudible. Therefor, they do not matter to humans. It's like obsessing over the depth of a crater on the moon. It's not going to affect anyone on Earth's life.
 
     Share This Post       
post-14029507
Post #6,753 of 12,441

ScottFree

1000+ Head-Fier
Joined
Apr 1, 2008
Messages
1,156
Reaction score
818
Joined
Apr 1, 2008
Posts
1,156
Likes
818
It doesn't matter to you but it does matter to other people.
And this is how we got NwAVGuy

I'm not going to respond any further in this thread because I don't want to fill it with off topic noise. If you want to discuss further PM me or make a separate thread.
Best to have said this a few pages ago.
 
Last edited:
post-14029556
Post #6,754 of 12,441

amirm

Member of the Trade: Madrona Digital
Joined
Sep 26, 2017
Messages
596
Reaction score
309
Location
Seattle, USA
Joined
Sep 26, 2017
Location
Seattle, USA
Posts
596
Likes
309
Website
www.audiosciencereview.com
Here is my offering to my Northwest Bifrost reviewer of AV gear with the Japanese Bride avatar. I go to every (almost) Rocky Mountain AF, occasional Axpona Shows, and some local meets or SchiitKit shows. Let's meet up, shake hands, be cordial and air our philosophies either publicly or privately. Your call. I promise I to be well behaved verbally and I don't even care if you really think I am ugly or incompetent. This is all I have to say on this subject. No more posts – I will not be called out. I will let your posts stand on this thread (This thread is mine to moderate) as I really loathe censorship. If you wish to further communicate with me all about how stupid I am, how much my gear sucks, or any communication at all, I would encourage you to PM me, as any real or perceived negative Moffat stuff on this thread in particular will probably bode far less well for you than me.
Commenting on this part first, I certainly accept your kind offer to meet. I go to almost all audio shows just the same. Next one I am signed up for is Axpona and will also go to RMAF. So let's organize offline a time to meet or I will just drop by your suite while there.

I also want to clear up some misunderstandings here about the work I do. I am NOT a reviewer. I am a retired technology executive that loves to keep busy as to keep the mind from rotting. :) Measuring equipment is one of those projects I do. I normally buy all of my own equipment to review as was the case when I measured your Modi 2. I also accept loaned gear which was the case here. Owners like to know how their products measure objectively and importantly compares with others that I own (I probably have 20 to 30 DACs by now and the list is growing!). I also write technical articles for magazines and for my site.

To the extent my results are not favorable, I expect manufacturers contact me and correct or augment the data. A number have. I don't consider it my responsibility to chase the manufacturer after the fact for reaction. I find it poor form to respond to them elsewhere instead of contacting me.

Being in the industry means I carry no agenda. I know, hard to believe. :) But I am completely devoid of emotions in these things. It is not personal. It is all about the data. I have had manufactures fight me tooth and nail on my results only to find out there was something they could fix. Others have reached out to me and I worked with them (gratis) to improve their products. Yet another group has offered me product to test because they want to know how it measures, results being good or bad. I would love nothing better than seeing product improvements. Of course, if my measurements are in error, I love to see that too.

So in the interest of mutual respect, I hope you no longer put me in the bucket of people who hate you or your company/products. I go into evaluation of every review of your product as if the history is not there. I measure the gear and let the data speak for itself. Yes, there is commentary especially when I do tear-downs. Some three decades of managing engineering products (both hardware and software) means I do have opinions of what is safe and performant, and what is not. I won't apologize for that. :) My readers expect me to reflect my experience in such analysis and I provide it. Again, I accept feedback, corrections, questions just the same.

Anyway, thanks again for the olive branch and look forward to having a personal and friendly relationship moving forward. And please call me Amir. :)
 
post-14029566
Post #6,755 of 12,441

MWSVette

Headphoneus Supremus
Joined
Nov 7, 2014
Messages
2,055
Reaction score
2,297
Location
Orlando, FL
Joined
Nov 7, 2014
Location
Orlando, FL
Posts
2,055
Likes
2,297
Please do and I'd recommend that others put me on ignore rather than quote me like you have just done. Of course you aren't reading this though.

If you think the Bifrost MB sounds great then any measurements should be of no concern to you.



A screw that was loose would be a point against a finishing job of an expensive product. It is no reason to believe the unit is defective or tampered with and it's not even an important screw. The person who owns it doesn't want to void the warranty anyway so there was no hardware teardown.



It is not about audibility. It is about whether the measurements made were accurate.

Can you or anyone else here the glitch at -90db? If not then your first point is correct, and it should not matter to you either.

As far as a screw working loose, is that a worthy complaint, really.

If you can not hear it. Then what difference does it make if the graph of that measurement is correct or not.

smh...
 
     Share This Post       
  • Like
Reactions: RCBinTN and Ableza
post-14029592
Post #6,756 of 12,441

HumanFly

500+ Head-Fier
Joined
Apr 6, 2017
Messages
838
Reaction score
1,086
Joined
Apr 6, 2017
Posts
838
Likes
1,086
Please do and I'd recommend that others put me on ignore rather than quote me like you have just done. Of course you aren't reading this though.

If you think the Bifrost MB sounds great then any measurements should be of no concern to you.



A screw that was loose would be a point against a finishing job of an expensive product. It is no reason to believe the unit is defective or tampered with and it's not even an important screw. The person who owns it doesn't want to void the warranty anyway so there was no hardware teardown.



It is not about audibility. It is about whether the measurements made were accurate.
I don`t get these reactions. Mike has stated that if you(and/or Japanese bride guy) measured correctly the Bi-frost is broken and he wil repair it for you.
The linearity reported measurement is atrocious and far below the performance level of any 16 bit Bifrost ever sold. This means either the linearity measurement or the Bifrost is broken.
So why act like you have not gotten any awnser to your question why the Bifrost behaved as it did?
Wouldn`t the objective sciency thing to do be : send it in for repairs and measure it again when it returns?
If it does poop out the same numbers you have a very valid point that should be discussed. But if it doesn`t all you are doing now is losing face.
Also giving Mike the chance to fix it will prove that you believe in the correctness of your measurements. So please send the BiFrost in and test it again.
And please drop the results in here because as you can see Mike will not kick you or erase your findings.

BTW
I posted about the bombdropping like I did because I foresaw a massive discussion, not because I think there are things that should not be said.
 
post-14029597
Post #6,757 of 12,441

ToTo Man

100+ Head-Fier
Joined
Jan 6, 2014
Messages
426
Reaction score
182
Location
Scotland, UK
Joined
Jan 6, 2014
Location
Scotland, UK
Posts
426
Likes
182
I'm curious as to why everyone seems to be focusing on the -90dB glitch, which has already been discussed ad nauseam has it not? The other measurements make for a more interesting albeit not completely informed discussion, since we do not yet know if Bifrost MB sample that was measured is indeed faulty in some way.

EDIT - @HumanFly beat me to it!
 
Last edited:
     Share This Post       
post-14029635
Post #6,758 of 12,441

FLTWS

Headphoneus Supremus
Joined
May 1, 2016
Messages
2,164
Reaction score
2,695
Location
USA EST
Joined
May 1, 2016
Location
USA EST
Posts
2,164
Likes
2,695
Alright-y then, lets get back on topic. Cats; friend or foe? No? Okay then; favorite opera singers of 1931? No? How about; Should VU meters be making a comeback? No? .......................
 
     Share This Post       
post-14029651
Post #6,759 of 12,441

Ableza

Headphoneus Supremus
Joined
Jan 18, 2014
Messages
3,749
Reaction score
10,954
Location
Valley of the Sun
Joined
Jan 18, 2014
Location
Valley of the Sun
Posts
3,749
Likes
10,954
Mike has stated that if you(and/or Japanese bride guy) measured correctly the Bi-frost is broken and he wil repair it for you.

"Baldr
The linearity reported measurement is atrocious and far below the performance level of any 16 bit Bifrost ever sold. This means either the linearity measurement or the Bifrost is broken. "
 
     Share This Post       
post-14029684
Post #6,760 of 12,441

Byronb

500+ Head-Fier
Joined
Jan 2, 2013
Messages
916
Reaction score
363
Joined
Jan 2, 2013
Posts
916
Likes
363
My Bifrost sounds amazing!
 
     Share This Post       
post-14029686
Post #6,761 of 12,441

Rtg97229

Head-Fier
Joined
Oct 12, 2014
Messages
50
Reaction score
100
Location
Portland Oregon
Joined
Oct 12, 2014
Location
Portland Oregon
Posts
50
Likes
100
Yes and this is why information on the test setup is important. The equipment under test could be broken or the test setup could have a problem. Every time I ask I am told that it has already been discussed but I don't get any further details nor do I find sufficient documentation from the person presenting the data.
 
     Share This Post       
post-14029695
Post #6,762 of 12,441

Oveja Negra

100+ Head-Fier
Joined
Dec 23, 2015
Messages
340
Reaction score
769
Joined
Dec 23, 2015
Posts
340
Likes
769
This thread has been really interesting during the last pages (at last, since opera bores me to the death).

What I'd like to know -as a Bifrost owner- is...

@amirm After or prior your measurements, did you critically listen to that Bifrost unit? did it sound bad, mediocre or still sounded good? I'm really curious if all the faults you found translate into an audible degradation or not.

Regards.
 
     Share This Post       
  • Like
Reactions: rutter and RCBinTN
post-14029710
Post #6,763 of 12,441

amirm

Member of the Trade: Madrona Digital
Joined
Sep 26, 2017
Messages
596
Reaction score
309
Location
Seattle, USA
Joined
Sep 26, 2017
Location
Seattle, USA
Posts
596
Likes
309
Website
www.audiosciencereview.com
@amirm After or prior your measurements, did you critically listen to that Bifrost unit? did it sound bad, mediocre or still sounded good? I'm really curious if all the faults you found translate into an audible degradation or not.
I have not done any critical listening on it. I did listen to it for an hour to see if there are any drop outs as someone asked and it sounded "fine."

Unfortunately this is a loaner unit and will be going back. If I had more time on it, I could develop a listening test to characterize any audibility issues.
 
     Share This Post       
  • Like
Reactions: RCBinTN
post-14029717
Post #6,764 of 12,441

Oveja Negra

100+ Head-Fier
Joined
Dec 23, 2015
Messages
340
Reaction score
769
Joined
Dec 23, 2015
Posts
340
Likes
769
I have not done any critical listening on it. I did listen to it for an hour to see if there are any drop outs as someone asked and it sounded "fine."

Unfortunately this is a loaner unit and will be going back. If I had more time on it, I could develop a listening test to characterize any audibility issues.
Ahh what a bummer, it would be great to see if there's a correlation between the measurements and the perceived "real life" performance of the unit.

Anyways, thanks for taking the time to answer.
 
     Share This Post       
  • Like
Reactions: RCBinTN and amirm
post-14029726
Post #6,765 of 12,441

MWSVette

Headphoneus Supremus
Joined
Nov 7, 2014
Messages
2,055
Reaction score
2,297
Location
Orlando, FL
Joined
Nov 7, 2014
Location
Orlando, FL
Posts
2,055
Likes
2,297
Last edited:
     Share This Post       

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 2, Guests: 4)

Top