What a long, strange trip it's been -- (Robert Hunter)
Feb 3, 2016 at 4:19 AM Post #346 of 14,122

johnjen

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snip
Given the above info, what say you all?
As I see it, unless there is a 'compelling' aspect to its performance, enough so that it would could reach beyond the 'normal' schiit market and into the mainstream and even then it might take a while to garner enough 'buzz'.
I figure it would probably be a 'slow seller' in the long run, unless it has a hook, a really compelling hook …

Which I would say you are fully capable of delivering, what with your past design/implementation chops and all…

If it could grab your wife and light up her eyes, that would be an indication of it being compelling.
Whether that is enough of a hook, I dunno…

There are lots of pre-amps out there…

JJ
 
Feb 3, 2016 at 6:17 AM Post #347 of 14,122

bigro

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  Given the above info, what say you all?

While I would really like to see what a Tube Phone Pre amp from Schiit. It seems cost is one factor but the limitations of compatible cartridges may limit the user base to the semi serious to serious analog enthusiasts. With that Said,  A Tube Version of the Mani does not mean the original goes away. Those who have MM or MC cartridges that may not work well with a Tube version are not sitting Ducks as they already have an Excellent Choice. The Modi and the Yggy  fulfill similar needs but accomplish their tasks from my laymen eyes in a different manner and at different price points, The Modi Crowd may not be the Yggy Crowd and I would say the same applies here.  As a semi-semi serious analog Enthusiast and some one who really enjoys the products that come out of the Schiit house I am Intrigued. All of the constraints listed to a Tube Version of the Mani probably will not scare most at my level and definitely not those who are light years beyond me considering the record care, Turntable leveling, Isolation and all the other "rituals" that people may go through when using turntables.
 
The caveats are going to be
 Will this Cost increase mean a Valhalla- Bimby Price Point or at a Ragnarok - Yggdrasil Price point?
 Is the minimum Investment in a MC Cartridge that is compatible a Car Payment or a Mortgage Payment?
 The Thing that draws me to Schiit as a Customer is the Performance to Cost factor. Can the Added Complexity and Cost to Said Tube Mani show a Noticeable improvement over the current Mani?
 
For Me that Last Question is Probably, the Biggest factor. Like many others,  If I see the value in something I will save for it, even if it is a Mortgage payment. On the other hand if this Tube Phono Pre amp is in lets say the Valhalla Bimby price range but it may not offer much in the way in performance over the Current Mani then I probably would not buy it because the 3- 6x Price Jump will be hard to digest knowing how good the Mani is.There is Also that Whole 3 Step Process Jason laid out in his Marketing Chapter for Audio Addicts Anonymous but I probably don't need to tell you that.
 
 
  I use the Mani with a Valhalla which Gives me all of the Advantages of the Mani and the Valhalla Goodness and honestly I am very Happy with this combo. But why we are pestering you for something else?  If the Mani is this Good, is a steal at it's price point and has some in the HI fi world singing praises now we want to know , What else is the Mad Scientist Known as Baldr hiding up his sleeves? Is it a Tube Phono Pre amp? A Mani Uber?  I am not sure,  however Stereophiles piece on the Mani and the Legend of your Tube Design of way back when does not help either.
 
 One More off the Wall Thought. Does A Hybrid Phono Stage make any sense at all or is it even Possible? Similar to the Vali 2 or the Lyr.  The Thought here is on low gain use tubes and higher Gain Solid State. Can this approach help with flexibility in Cartridge choice? If this makes no sense, I accept defeat and I will go drink My coffee Now.
 
Feb 3, 2016 at 8:52 AM Post #348 of 14,122

Thad-E-Ginathom

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  this is probebly of topic , was watching jerry garcia  live at the shoreline in 90 ,just genuis ,i dont know anyone that can touch him , what id like to know is did any of you guys seen the grateful dead when owsely stanely had the wall of sound backing them up .its just such a staggerling beautifuul setup .would have loved  to have  lived in those days ...

 
So would I! And I'm sad that they didn't visit London very often.
 
The last time I saw them must have been 1990: fairly late in their life (and middle-aged in mine)! I went to the concert thinking, "I hate crowds; I hate loud noise; why am I going to a rock concert?"
 
Of course, it was wonderful, and the most remarkable thing was the quality of the sound. It was not a super-super-giant venue, but one with a capacity of about 15,000, which is a lot of people in my book, but probably small as big rock concerts go these days. The sound never hurt my ears once. It was clear, well balanced, and superb. The only time I had to put my hands over my ears was when the crowd sand along with the occasional line.
 
So, I suspect that they had a big regard for sound quality right to the end.
 
Feb 3, 2016 at 1:06 PM Post #349 of 14,122

kstuart

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  this is probebly of topic , was watching jerry garcia  live at the shoreline in 90 ,just genuis ,i dont know anyone that can touch him , what id like to know is did any of you guys seen the grateful dead when owsely stanely had the wall of sound backing them up .its just such a staggerling beautifuul setup .would have loved  to have  lived in those days ,so if anyone was at one of those concert i would love to hear about it ,and what it was like to  drop white lightning

I bought this picture from a guy who was standing outside the concert afterwards (1974):
 

 
The speaker drivers were all JBL professional and the amplification was 48 McIntosh 2300 audiophile amplifers (600 watts each) - you can see one just above the drum platform:
 

 
To answer your question, it was very clear and undistorted, not the sensation of volume that we usually encounter, because that usually involves clipping and distortion.  It was a unique bass experience at the time, because most systems were either bass shy or had distorted one-note bass.
 
I had not heard anything similar until recently attending a concert of Lorin Ashton (aka "Bassnectar"), who insists on a clear, undistorted and loud system (which has similar four figure power amplification).
 
Feb 3, 2016 at 1:37 PM Post #350 of 14,122

rtaylor76

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  It seems there is some demand for a Schiit all tube phono preamp...Tubes have real world constraints which impact costs and features.
 
Given the above info, what say you all?

 
My question is, why have you guys not built this already? I mean, seriously? Or maybe you have and are waiting to release it at the right time. But let's go through your list anyways.
 
  The first is an unsuitability for all but the highest output moving coil cartridges. 

 
Many of your customers are not worried about this. Many who own extremely low output moving coil carts know that there is a tremendous amount of clean power they need. It's kind of like buying planars - it is not just the cost of the planars, but the amp needed to push them to the level of refinement required. Many of your customers would more than likely have high output moving magnet (or moving iron, like those awful Grados) cartridges. So with the majority of carts out there, even high end ones, being MM, and the fact you would be able to accommodate some of the MC carts, except for the extremely low output ones, I see no issue here. Especially when you have a preamp already for those type of carts. 
 
 
The next issue is gain – this is due to my philosophy of no feedback vacuum tube design. 

 
Same kind of point as above. I have the Mani and I'm using Ortofon 2M Blue with 47K load (obviously) and 48db gain (Gain 1 = H, Gain 2 = L). I found 1 = L, 2 = H a bit soft and missing something on the top end. And both on high distorted badly. So, if that is the kind of gain you are needing (the Mani with both 1 and 2 on high), then I would say it is not needed. Even my old vintage Shure cart distorted on this setting as well as my AT95E. Now, granted, all of those carts are MM, but that is mostly set with the incoming impedance setting. I doubt anything that impedance needs that much gain.
 
Either way, I still say fixed gain and only MM is not that bad giving the quality of the preamp. If anyone NEEDS that, you still have a preamp that works. You can't make a product for every turntable setup. And sometimes more settings is just confusing to your customers. Remember, most of your customers that are buying the Mani, it is their first phono preamp they have ever purchased.
 
 
The next constraint is no tube rolling outside of the 6DJ8/6922/7308 family.

 
That is enough tubes to roll. Once again, too many choices. Other manufacturers don't even go that far. One tube they support, that's it. A phono preamp has much more delicate impedances to deal with as you say with the proper RIAA curve, so users can deal with it. It is what is. 
 
 
Finally we get to cost.  The net result is that such a proposed design will be 4 to 5 times the price of a Mani.

 
Mani is going for $129. It smokes every preamp in that price rage. I think it is even better than the popular Rega Fono at $395 and that thing is only MM. I even read a review that said is is just as prestigious as their Clearaudio Mini V2 (which is about the same physical size as the Mani), and that thing is $450. [To anyone reading this, yes, the Mani is THAT good.]
 
But those are solid state...okay. 4 to 5 times the price of the Mani would be $516 to $645 range. That is actually a pretty wide range, and your main competition in this would be the Pro-Ject Tube Box S and the Tube Box DS, which are most likely using high negative feedback designs and nasty 12AX7 tubes. Yes, they have all that customizability (especially with the DS model), but at what expense? It negates the advantages of tubes when you have to make such sacrifices (and again, with those nasty and noisy guitar amp 12AX7 tubes). And let's not even mention the Rolls Bellaris - they don't even count as tube preamps. So nobody even makes a tube phono preamp in this price range that would be likely as good as the one you could build.
 
So again I say, what is stopping you? 
 
One last thing I will say...I see there are many Schiit items on Amazon, but the Mani is not one of them. There is a big market for external phono premaps, and good ones, to match their Rega's, Pro-Jects, Music Hall, and even Audio-Technica turntables. This is mostly due to the fact that phono preamps are not included in receivers these days. @Jason Stoddard ought to consider it. I think you guys are missing out.
 
Feb 3, 2016 at 2:57 PM Post #351 of 14,122

bigro

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 I was going to Respond to Bits and Pieces of rtaylor76's comment but more or less I agree with the Whole thing. Especially the Fact that the Mani is an insanely good phone pre amp and the price range means it will Pair well with the Entry Level tables with out Breaking the Bank but it is not budget quality sound by any means. It's Flexibility is Probably the reason that even if a tube Version for MC only would make sense even if at the cost of the The Pro-ject Box s or whatever they call it, which does use "nasty 12AX7 tubes". Yes the prices for the "entry level tube pre amps are far more than I thought they would be. The Entry Level Project Tube Phone Pre is $449. I can Buy a Mani, an Asgard and a SYS  with say $15 in shipping and still have money to stop and pickup some cheap greasy fast food on the way home.
 
With the announcement of Schiit getting in to two channel more. I suspect that a Tube Phone Pre amp will find a bigger audience as Schiit is Mostly known for Headphone Gear. Hell if people are spending the money on even half way decent entry level tables like the Music halls, Pro-ject and Rega's as opposed to or in combination of digital music, An option of tube phone preamp that can take the sound of the Mani and make it even sexier is Icing on the Cake. (My wife is not to know I referred to any piece of audio gear as sexy, she already calls the Bimby the other woman. This Might just be the death of me.)
 
Feb 3, 2016 at 5:50 PM Post #352 of 14,122

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So would I! And I'm sad that they didn't visit London very often.

The last time I saw them must have been 1990: fairly late in their life (and middle-aged in mine)! I went to the concert thinking, "I hate crowds; I hate loud noise; why am I going to a rock concert?"

Of course, it was wonderful, and the most remarkable thing was the quality of the sound. It was not a super-super-giant venue, but one with a capacity of about 15,000, which is a lot of people in my book, but probably small as big rock concerts go these days. The sound never hurt my ears once. It was clear, well balanced, and superb. The only time I had to put my hands over my ears was when the crowd sand along with the occasional line.

So, I suspect that they had a big regard for sound quality right to the end.
there sound quality is phenominal .iv only had my headphone amp about 3 weeks now but nothing iv listened to compares to a dead recording expsially dicks picks superbly enginierd .man try and get hold of the dvd with jerry playing at the shoreline ampitheater i thing he was in or close to his 50s what he does on that guitar of his is just pure joy : )
 
Feb 3, 2016 at 5:51 PM Post #353 of 14,122

420277

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I bought this picture from a guy who was standing outside the concert afterwards (1974):




The speaker drivers were all JBL professional and the amplification was 48 McIntosh 2300 audiophile amplifers (600 watts each) - you can see one just above the drum platform:




To answer your question, it was very clear and undistorted, not the sensation of volume that we usually encounter, because that usually involves clipping and distortion.  It was a unique bass experience at the time, because most systems were either bass shy or had distorted one-note bass.

I had not heard anything similar until recently attending a concert of Lorin Ashton (aka "Bassnectar"), who insists on a clear, undistorted and loud system (which has similar four figure power amplification).
just beautiful man thankyou
 
Feb 3, 2016 at 7:23 PM Post #354 of 14,122

shultzee

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Saw the Dead in the 70's at the forum in Cleveland.   Amazing concert that made a huge impression on me.    Playing in the Band.....China Cat Sunflower.....
 
Feb 3, 2016 at 11:09 PM Post #356 of 14,122

Mottom

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Baldr,

Perhaps you could offer incremental upgrades to the Mani. There was a member on here that custom ordered a linear power supply and raved about the improvement. Why not do that? I'd pay you another $100-150 for a Sol (suggested name) linear supply to mate to my Mani. What say you?
 
Feb 4, 2016 at 1:51 AM Post #357 of 14,122

SoupRKnowva

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Baldr,

Perhaps you could offer incremental upgrades to the Mani. There was a member on here that custom ordered a linear power supply and raved about the improvement. Why not do that? I'd pay you another $100-150 for a Sol (suggested name) linear supply to mate to my Mani. What say you?


Considering the Mani already uses a linear power supply...I'm curious how this person hooked his up without serious modifications to their Mani?
 
Feb 4, 2016 at 6:22 AM Post #358 of 14,122

Thad-E-Ginathom

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there sound quality is phenominal .iv only had my headphone amp about 3 weeks now but nothing iv listened to compares to a dead recording expsially dicks picks superbly enginierd .man try and get hold of the dvd with jerry playing at the shoreline ampitheater i thing he was in or close to his 50s what he does on that guitar of his is just pure joy : )


I have always found that in their music: pure joy! OK, some of it does other stuff to the brain cells too, but I cannot listen to the Dead without smiling.
 
Yes, I have got quite a lot of Dick's Pick's stuff, and have not even listened to it all yet. These released archive sets come with the caveat that we should not even expect technical perfection, that they are not necessarily considered good enough for commercial release. But wow... Sure, there may be the occasional flaw, but they sound pretty good to me!
 
  I bought this picture from a guy who was standing outside the concert afterwards (1974):

 

Brilliant. Thank you :)
 
Feb 4, 2016 at 7:56 AM Post #359 of 14,122

crazychile

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That's a completely bad-assed speaker array. I'm not a huge Dead fan but am growing to appreciate some of their stuff because it can sound pretty good and makes me smile. I'd go see a live show of a band that I maybe wasn't completely in to if I knew the sound was going to be good. Conversely, I've seen some favorite bands back in the day where the sound or performance was embarrassing. Now that the days of seeing a first rate act for $20 is long gone, I'm pretty selective before I plunk down $75 (plus crazy fees) just to get cheap seats to a show.
 
Feb 4, 2016 at 8:10 AM Post #360 of 14,122

US Blues

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The point, just about halfway...

 
Each stack/cluster of speakers reproduced the sound of only one instrument, in essence the Wall was seven separate sound systems stacked together. With each instruments, and the vocals, being reproduced individually, the intermodulation distortion through the amplification stage and thru the speakers was eliminated. The bass guitar had stacks tall enough to physically reproduce the height of the wave form of the lowest bass note. Along with all this technical info, it is important to recognized that for some of us Dead aficionado's, the band in 1974 was playing tremendous music within the arc of their career evolution.
 

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