What’s the point of upsampling?
Oct 30, 2024 at 4:27 PM Post #16 of 66
different dacs handle different samplerates differently ..... its simple as that .... one thing that never gets mentioned: 44,1khz vs 48khz clocks can perform differently, so my advice is just to give it a try :)

a good start for upsampling:

if your dac supports max 192khz..... give upsampling to 176,4khz and 192khz a try and compare it to native 44,1khz and just see if you can hear a difference

preferably you would use a better resampling algorithm than the included one in windows
:)
 
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Oct 30, 2024 at 4:44 PM Post #17 of 66

MSB’s Cascade DAC : $95,000​

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Oct 30, 2024 at 4:52 PM Post #18 of 66
:wink:I'm overly sarcastic, and I oversimplify, but it should still be mostly right.
I often enjoy reading your sarcasm. Brutal and to the point, but generally a fair assessment IMO :wink:

"over" can have a bad connotation as in meaning "to excess": overdone, overextend, over-exaggerate etc.
"up" can have good connotations such as in upmarket, upbeat, uplifting etc.

Is that why oversampling is now called upsampling?
 
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Oct 30, 2024 at 11:23 PM Post #19 of 66
@castleofargh I general I find your assesment very accurate. But using terms like "audiophile elite and "plebs" are quite unscientific and when I recall correctly we are here in the scientific section of the forum where we should use more scientific terms. :)

I did warn about the sarcasm, not the pettiness. Put it on me being too human and confused by motivations to use superseded tech.
Is that why oversampling is now called upsampling?
That's a giant can of worm and no big deal at the same time. Different people have different definitions and uses for those terms. Some in the hobby don't manage to agree even at the engineering level, somehow.
What I learned, long before falling head first into the audio hobby, was that oversampling was about recording, encoding a signal at a sample rate much bigger than Nyquist for all the good reasons. While upsampling was all the interpolation and zero padding stuff done to an existing digital signal. Simple, clear, no possible confusion. So of course audiophiles pretty much never talk about it that way, and with time, I also stopped. You know, like how we talk about microphonic noises in cables meaning physical rubbing noises, even though microphonic has another precise meaning nobody on the forum uses that way. I guess it's like how language evolves, once enough people say something wrong, it becomes the proper way of saying it. 🤷‍♂️

So in the hobby, you can get the distinction being the multiplier value(why not). Or some people exclusively talk about it for reclocking(why I brought it up in the last post, just in case). And some just call everything oversampling. That's my favorite, actually. If we're going to use terms wrongly, we should at the very least get the benefit of simplicity ^_^.
 
Nov 6, 2024 at 12:53 PM Post #20 of 66
So my question is what’s the point of upsampling a source encoded in lower quality?
Upsampling/Oversampling has been used since digital audio was first released to consumers ~1984. The basic condition/requirement for digital audio is that all frequencies above half the sample rate (called the Nyquist Frequency or Nyquist Point) must be removed. So in the case of say CD, with a sampling rate of 44.1kS/s all freqs above 22.05kHz need to be filtered out. It’s easy to create an analogue filter to remove freqs above 22.05kHz but only if you start the filter far lower and have a large transition band. For example, start the filter at say 10kHz and have a transition band 12.05kHz wide, so the stop band is at 22.05kHz. The obvious problem with that is you’re going to be reducing the level of the content above 10kHz, which is within the audible band and therefore not ideal audible fidelity/transparency. The obvious solution is to have a filter starting above the audible band (20kHz) with much narrower transition band, ~2kHz. The problem is, it’s very difficult and expensive to create a good analogue filter with such a transition band. The other way to tackle the problem is to oversample, for example, if we double the sample rate, so it’s now 88.2kS/s, then the Nyquist Point is at 44.1kHz and we could design a filter with a relatively wide transition band, say a transition bandwidth of 24.1kHz but still starting outside the audible band at 20kHz. Problem solved. Or rather, it’s solved as far as the 2 required analogue filters are concerned (one in the ADC and then one in the DAC when converting back) but we now have the problem of a sample rate of 88.2kS/s when we needed 44.1. So we still need a filter in the ADC (called a decimation filter) with a stop band at 22.05kHz and a filter in the DAC (called an anti-image filter) also with a stop band at 22.05kHz before we oversample and hand it over to the analogue reconstruction filter. The big difference is we can now have these narrow transition band filters in the digital domain while the analogue filters have relatively wide transition bands. This was difficult in the early 1980’s because consumer digital hadn’t taken off and the available processing chips had relatively little computing power, so the digital filters were somewhat compromised. Of course, by the 1990’s consumer digital technology exploded and the power of processing chips increased by many orders of magnitude and it was no longer a problem. In fact, to relax the requirement on the analogue filters to even more trivial levels, 64x oversampling was introduced around 1987 and as castleofargh stated with just one bit oversampling. Then around the mid 1990’s multi-bit oversampling and then at even higher sample rates, 512x is common these days or even 1024x. Anyway, that’s the point of over/upsampling.
Upsampling can be used to apply "external" (e.g. in a computer) mathematical "better" reconstruction filters when going from digital to analog when using 16bit/44.1 kHz as source. This only "makes sense" when you use a DAC, which does not apply its own internal reconstruction filters after your nice external ("better") reconstruction filters.
Upsampling has nothing to do with external or internal processing and external processing in a computer isn’t mathematically “better”, it’s mathematically “worse”. Increasing the mathematical difficulty/processing power required to create a filter with the required properties (starting outside the audible band, with a stop band near the Nyquist Point) is worse, not better. And it does not “make sense” to buy a faulty DAC in the first place. A reconstruction filter is a required part of the digital to analogue conversion process, so a DAC that doesn’t have one is a faulty digital to analogue converter (DAC).
the crackpots state that the external filters are better than the internal ones of a DAC, due to more calculating power in an external computer as internally in a DAC.
Yep, that’s why they’re crackpots! “More calculating power” solves the issue that existed 40 years ago but as that issue was already solved 25-30 years ago (in the chips inside DACs), it’s now just snake oil. If I need to calculate 1 + 1, I can do that with the cheapest calculator, giving it to the world’s most powerful super computer won’t make any difference to the outcome. You could probably devise some hugely convoluted alternative way of calculating 1 + 1 that actually requires a super computer but the result is still going to be 2, unless it’s broken!
If this is audible? Some say yes and some say no.
Again, the crackpots say yes, the reliable evidence and therefore the rational people say no.
Is that why oversampling is now called upsampling?
That’s a little complicated. Oversampling is technically a sub set of upsampling. Upsampling is just increasing the sample rate, while oversampling is increasing the sample rate by a multiple of the original. So going from say 44.1kFs/S to 48kFs/S is upsampling, while going from 44.1kFs/S to 88.2kFs/S is both oversampling and upsampling, although oversampling should really be the correct term in this case, because it’s more precise. While that’s relatively simple, the whole thing was complicated by the fact that so many didn’t understand or know it, so today the two terms have largely become interchangeable.

G
 
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Nov 6, 2024 at 1:12 PM Post #21 of 66
That first whack of text from gregorio is beautiful. My eyes can't even take it in. That's an industrial-grade block of text. Brutal :metal:

But yeah. I don't get DSD. I started looking into it out of curiosity because of the new Topping D90 which converts everything to DSD. And from what I can tell most of the work of a DSD DAC is getting rid of what... noise and distortion and fuzz and crap, because the format is by default so poor? Why would that be attractive to anyone.

But then I saw that Paul McGowan PS Audio guy saying that DSD512 is the closest thing you'll hear to reality. Indistinguishable from reality, in fact. You'll always be able to tell the difference PCM and reality, but not DSD hahaha
 
Nov 6, 2024 at 2:02 PM Post #22 of 66
No recording is indistinguishable from reality. Reality has a million cues that can’t be reproduced with just two channels. Room reflections, HRTF, distance cues, directionality… DSD does nothing more than CD in these areas. A stereo recording involves frequency, amplitude, distortion, dynamics, timing… and none of this is audibly different between DSD and CD sound.
 
Nov 6, 2024 at 2:20 PM Post #23 of 66
Thank you so much G. That what extremely clear and useful.
I wish I had more time to study better all these things.
There are so many things in this hobby that baffles me, and I rally wish I had more knowledge.

I have question now; ripping a CD to anything above 44.1khz, is still considered upsampling/oversampling? If the original source is a cd what can I get more ripping it to higher bits/frequencies?
 
Nov 6, 2024 at 2:28 PM Post #24 of 66
I have question now; ripping a CD to anything above 44.1khz, is still considered upsampling/oversampling? If the original source is a cd what can I get more ripping it to higher bits/frequencies?
yes pretty much, at some point it has to be resampled to end up at 192khz for example

ime better sound quality, tho i like to keep all files original and resampling on the fly with either pipewire (linux) or hqplayer

since resampling algorithms can differ from eachother making actual files will make this an "no return" process
 
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Nov 6, 2024 at 3:49 PM Post #25 of 66
Thank you so much G. That what extremely clear and useful.

Gregorio is very generous with sharing his expertise.

I have question now; ripping a CD to anything above 44.1khz, is still considered upsampling/oversampling? If the original source is a cd what can I get more ripping it to higher bits/frequencies?

You get nothing but more redundant data. All of the information that the recording will ever contain is in the CD. Padding it out just makes it bigger. It doesn't make it sound any better. In fact, if the upsampled version sounds different than the CD, there is something wrong with the upsampling. There is no reason it should sound any different.

Bigger file sizes doesn't necessarily mean better sound. There is a point where your ears can't hear any more. You can pack in more X's and O's or frequencies you can't hear or detail at inaudible volume levels, but it doesn't make any difference when you listen to music on your home stereo.
 
Nov 6, 2024 at 4:21 PM Post #26 of 66
Gregorio is very generous with sharing his expertise.



You get nothing but more redundant data. All of the information that the recording will ever contain is in the CD. Padding it out just makes it bigger. It doesn't make it sound any better. In fact, if the upsampled version sounds different than the CD, there is something wrong with the upsampling. There is no reason it should sound any different.

Bigger file sizes doesn't necessarily mean better sound. There is a point where your ears can't hear any more. You can pack in more X's and O's or frequencies you can't hear or detail at inaudible volume levels, but it doesn't make any difference when you listen to music on your home stereo.

That’s what I was thinking, and thanks for confirming it.
 
Nov 6, 2024 at 6:11 PM Post #27 of 66
I have question now; ripping a CD to anything above 44.1khz, is still considered upsampling/oversampling? If the original source is a cd what can I get more ripping it to higher bits/frequencies?
Is it a thing some people do? There is obviously no way to recover more data than there is on the CD.
 
Nov 7, 2024 at 1:35 AM Post #29 of 66
It may sound smoother and more analogue :D
 
Nov 7, 2024 at 2:30 AM Post #30 of 66
It’s full of people out here, Facebook groups, other forums and such, of people ripping cd or records (even worse IMO) to 24 bit and such.
maybe you saw vinyl rips? those are "usually" 24bit , i havent seen much upsampled cds personally or they were wrongly tagged
 

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