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Watts Up...?

Discussion in 'Rob Watts' started by wink, Mar 2, 2016.
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  1. JaZZ Contributor
    Or the other way round: What could you expect to learn by not listening to the DAVE?

    Like many other DAVE owners and lovers I'm still fascinated by the incredible (and unrivaled) small-signal reproduction which leads to an enhanced perception of spatial depth. The addition of an M Scaler carries this virtue even further. So if you had the opportunity (and the guts) to invest some time for the audition of a DAVE it could very well be an eye-opener – at least a strong indication that the effort for DAVE's design isn't just snake oil.

    And shouldn't DACs and amps actually all sound the same since they measure the same (with the officially accepted standard criteria)? The experience of a clearly superior electronics component could help opening up closed minds (I'm not speaking of you personally, but most of the Sound Science's regular customers).
    DaveRedRef-III and Rob Watts like this.
  2. 514077
    I don't think he wants to read the post(s). He says nothing can convince him. Whatever he hears, he'll dismiss or just disbelieve. More 'sound atheism than sound science,'.
  3. odessamarin
    Hello all,
    I am very interested in the topic you are discussing here, and would like to be in :)
    Few words about me, I am a researcher, PhD in neurophysiology, study how our brain works.
    Some years ago i am approached HiFi adventure.. starting from fiio daps. Now my level is not too high (grado headphones, hugo tt, qutest, bryston amp) but enough to hear in sound what you are talking about here (hopefully).
    First of all, I am really respect what Rob are doing and thankful for the great products that Chord produce. Thanks to his and DAC's slowly I get to the level to hear the characteristic of the music we discuss here. I love it form one hands, but it's a bit dangerous form the other.. i am wish to upgrade and also can critically comment some Chord products as well. Sorry for that.
    The topic i would like to address is a perception of the depth. I understand that it's always the question of the personal preference in music, someone will like bass, other highs. In my case once I get (heard) depth in sound scene image, it was no turn back.. I realized how music is boring without this. And is stat to be my priority, much more important than any frequency charters, low, middle, highs.. no meter that much. Can be always adjusted buy headphone, amp, cables choice. But depth is something apart for me.
    From this discussion I understand it's big technical challenge and still we do not know much about it.
    First, i am really curious how many people really hear it in their system. From comments time to time like.. there is no difference, no need hi res sound, our brain can't distinguish from 44,1.. seems not many really hear depth resolution. Which is very sad.
    For me, I found some songs where you can evaluate depth relatively easy.. I mean you will hear it or not. Be careful, it may open your eyes (ears) on some gear in your system.
    Here i will post what i found up to now.
    Audition to evaluate depth I done on Patricia Barber - Cafe Blue album in Hi Res (also in normal red book, depth is well recognized).
    In particular 2nd track - Mourning Grace, first half of the song will tell you, how is your system capable to reproduce depth, image and scene of this composition.
    1. Hugo TT > Grado - very good depth, nice wide scene, a bit too airy and smooth.
    2. Hugo 1 > Grado - very good depth but narrow from sides, less profound and extended bass in compare to TT. Fact that DAC is the same, sound difference goes to the improved out stage in TT.
    3. Hugo 2 > Grado - very reduced depth, wide but squeezed from top and button, sound more detailed and defined in compare to TT (previous DAC).
    To get final opinion regarding new DAC form Chord, I decide to try Qutest, to avoid amp out stage of Hugo2.
    3. Qutest > Grado (direct to line out with potenciometar attenuation). I know, it's not normal, but it works very well, beleave me.
    - depth is very good on green and less on white filter. Other two filters decrease and alternate depth notably. And we have nice, detailed, transparent and textured sound form new DAC compared to TT. Still TT sounstage is wider a bit, its really surround you and go into infinite. But more soft and airy. Really hard to decide which representation you prefer. Should be Dave that combaine the best of them.. :)
    Now to address my eventual critic for my direct line listening i tried two of my desktop amps (ss Bryston and valve Mad Ear +HD)
    Qutest > Bryston > Grado (normal unbalanced out) - depth destroyed ( (similar to Hugo2)
    Qutest (RCA)> Bryston > LCD-3 (Balanced XLR) - all peperect! nice depth and reach sound
    Qutest > Mad Ear +HD > Grado - all perfect! nice depth and "lamp" sound
    Hugo TT (Balanced XLR) > Bryston > LCD-3 (Balanced XLR) - THIS JUST BLOW MY MIND!!!
    this is the best full three dementional scene I ever heard up to now. It feels exactly if you move from normal cinema to 3D with glasses IMAX.. Really, you have to try it! I was never suspect how fully balanced pathway can influence depth perception. Unbelievable. Dear Rob, THANK you so MUCH!

    One more thing i would like to mention is interesting observation regarding DSD support I found in new DAC (Hugo2 and Qutest).
    I have the same album as I mention before in DSD. I played it directly form my different Fiio DAPs (DoP and D2P - coax).
    The depth of this song will be reproduced correctly ONLY in D2P mode in White filter.
    All the rest options, other filters, DoP mode.. will completely destroy it. I found it interesting to report and discuss.
    Was unable to try native DSD as it supporst only from windows.
    If anybody interest to try this i can share test DSD song (PM me)...

    I am very interested, what you think of my reports..
    And also, please advice me some other albums that you found with very good depth representation.

    PS I will update this post as new configurations will be tested.. Mojo is coming next
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2018
    calbu, maxh22, episiarch and 3 others like this.
  4. castleofargh Contributor
    you guys keep telling me to get this or that gear so that I will see the light despite how my argument has nothing to do with gears and everything to do with experiments and what should or shouldn't be interpreted from them. still a few suggest that I try some gear, but look at how bad the endowment effect turns out to be right now. I haven't said anything about gears being bad or about Rob doing a poor job designing said gears, or about you all being idiots for purchasing them. nothing of the sort, probably because I never thought any of it. and yet some of the reactions sure look like I did it all and then stole the cake for little Timmy's birthday.
    the replies(to something that wasn't addressed to anybody other than Rob BTW) range from discussing gears I didn't bring up at all, to weird displays of hatred and xenophobia against the Sound Science section. because obviously I couldn't possibly be my own man, and all my faults are the Sound Science's fault. it's so brave and clever to roast Sound Science(as if it was a single minded entity), just to run away from what I was pointing at. I'm so impressed by the cleverness of this strategy that I will unsubscribe to prove its effectiveness. it's not the first time here, nobody seems to find it highly inappropriate when it happens, and I'm fed up with it. so, bye bye alligator.
    I hope the rest of you will never end up judged and trolled by fools as if you were all like these 2 heroes, simply because you happened to read and post in this topic. spoiler alert, it's not a lot of fun.

    anyway, thanks to the few who actually tried to have a conversation, we seem to miss each other's points a lot but I always appreciate a genuine effort to discuss instead of.... arrrrrrghhhhhhhhh
    adyc likes this.
  5. JaZZ Contributor
    As someone who enjoys Rob's creations without knowing what exactly is responsible for the enhanced transparency and musicality I can't do anything else than trust the developer that it is indeed the result of his own experiments and findings, implemented into revolutionary electronics components. You can't expect to experience anything else, even from your «experiments». And as an open-minded member of team Sound Science you maybe could infect the other members with a bit of open-mindedness if you would condescend yourself to seriously audition gear of this kind. So it is indeed about gear, like it or not.

    It's sad to see you react like this – although I understand your bitterness. But keep in mind that visitors from this side of the forum usually experience the very same intolerance in the Sound Science forum – that's why I have given up to post there long ago.
  6. ZappaMan
    Come back, was only having a laugh.
    I like your questions as it helps us understand the science behind audio tec.
    Everyone’s welcome.
  7. bhobba
    I am looking at getting both a TT2 and a M-Scaler at least for evaluation but likely to buy. I want to direct connect it to my 89db speaker. I know it has a balanced out and a technician I know can easily make a cable for evaluation. I also know a cable maker and If I decide to buy he will make me a good permanent one.

    Anyway can someone say what pins on the XLR out you connect it to? I assume its pin 2 and 3 and ignore pin 1 which is the ground?

    BTW when I get it I will be posting some reviews against some pretty high end gear:

    1. DS both normal and Junior
    2. Gradinote DAC
    3. Gross DAC
    4. Killer DAC - Hand made DAC using one of those old Phillips double crown chips.

    Maybe some more if I can get a hold of them.

    514077 likes this.
  8. Rob Watts
    Yes pin 2 +ve, pin 3 -ve, pin 1 gnd. For SE use pin 1 and pin 2.
    Chord Electronics Stay updated on Chord Electronics at their sponsor page on Head-Fi.
    https://www.facebook.com/chordelectronics https://twitter.com/chordaudio http://www.chordelectronics.co.uk/
  9. jarnopp
  10. JaZZ Contributor
    Better use a similar adapter with male plug instead of the female «sockets» – otherwise you would need another piece of XLR-to-XLR cable for the TT₂'s (female) output sockets. Or even better: solder a pair of XLR plugs to your speaker cables.
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2018
  11. jarnopp
    But the TT2 has male output xlr, no?
  12. JaZZ Contributor
    Yes, I was wrong. I thought it's the same female XLR output as with the DAVE – which turns out to be an input, while the outputs are male as well! Sorry for the misinformation – I never used them. But the latter recommendation still stands: better renounce the adapter, in the interest of the damping factor.
  13. Rob Watts
    Chord Electronics Stay updated on Chord Electronics at their sponsor page on Head-Fi.
    https://www.facebook.com/chordelectronics https://twitter.com/chordaudio http://www.chordelectronics.co.uk/
  14. jarnopp
    Thanks Rob (And JaZZ). I will try the adapter for starters and when I can settle on the right speakers and cables, would then make up a custom pair. This will be very convenient for trials though. Appreciate the help greatly! Of course, first we need to get some HMS (edit: I meant TT2, but also mScaler) in America.
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2018
  15. jbrownson
    I came across a video on YouTube from a guy who makes music that looks interesting when you show the waveform on an oscilloscope. Somehow it made all of the descriptions I've seen/read of Mr. Watt's DAC tech make a bit more sense:

    This guy's "oscilloscope music" is pretty impressive too:
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