Watts Up...?
Mar 25, 2022 at 2:33 PM Post #3,286 of 4,620
Agreed - I think getting rid of passive crossovers should provide us with huge potential improvements in SQ.

It's very much on my to do list, but it's something that would have to be done in conjunction with a loudspeaker company. Once the ADC and DX amps are done...

Just wild thinking..
Having created my own loudspeaker concept too..

It would be a idea to create DX amp with for each channel 3-way independant digitally filtered outputs for straight connection to low, mid and high frequency speaker drivers or use low/mid + tweeter (2way) Losing the analog crossover components.

On the amp one can set the freq. roll on/off frequenties and phase/amplitude shifts among the outputs.

So any set of drivers can be used to play with.
Then the setting should be able to save in a config file.

This would become a best seller of Chord for any Hifi enthousiast who wants to build their speakers ..or use exising ones and take the filter out
 
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Mar 25, 2022 at 6:51 PM Post #3,287 of 4,620
Glad to know that my prediction was right. I was just watching your presentation at CanJam, which MidFi Guy uploaded to Youtube. Just prior, I had been watching Dan Clark's one, which covers a lot of related ground.
When could we expect your review of the DCA Stealth, been waiting for a while now 😉
 
Mar 25, 2022 at 11:30 PM Post #3,288 of 4,620
@Rob Watts,

On the TT2, is there any harm with using RCA for one set of speakers and the 1/4” headphone plug for another set, and do A/B testing by plugging and unplugging the 1/4”. I do this with my open headphones, and I assume that is not an issue. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Thanks again!

No harm at all.

Just wild thinking..
Having created my own loudspeaker concept too..

It would be a idea to create DX amp with for each channel 3-way independant digitally filtered outputs for straight connection to low, mid and high frequency speaker drivers or use low/mid + tweeter (2way) Losing the analog crossover components.

On the amp one can set the freq. roll on/off frequenties and phase/amplitude shifts among the outputs.

So any set of drivers can be used to play with.
Then the setting should be able to save in a config file.

This would become a best seller of Chord for any Hifi enthousiast who wants to build their speakers ..or use exising ones and take the filter out
I had too had thought about such a device - a universal programmable 3 way active amp - but I suspect that the commercial potential would be very limited.
 
Mar 26, 2022 at 12:10 AM Post #3,289 of 4,620
This would become a best seller of Chord for any Hifi enthousiast who wants to build their speakers ..or use exising ones and take the filter out
Not sure "best seller of Chord" and "Hifi enthusiast who wants to build their speakers" go together.

I read there's been over 100k Mojo's sold, so Chord best seller is not enthusiast crowd.

HiFi enthusiasts are often cheap too when it comes to DIY projects (I'm cheap with DIY speaker projects!)

I can't see such a Chord product being cheap, as cool as it would be.
 
Mar 26, 2022 at 12:16 AM Post #3,290 of 4,620
Have a similar unit in the car,
Audison Bit10D, goes between the head unit and power amps, 1 amp channel per driver, programmed via laptop software for various crossover designs and slopes plus delay for the different speaker positions.
Not as transparent as directly programmed digital amps but getting rid of the passive crossover boxes makes a noticeable difference …
 
Mar 26, 2022 at 4:28 AM Post #3,291 of 4,620
Mar 26, 2022 at 5:35 AM Post #3,292 of 4,620
No harm at all.


I had too had thought about such a device - a universal programmable 3 way active amp - but I suspect that the commercial potential would be very limited.
Wouldn’t the natural solution be to have one unit that can be programed either by a crossover design for e.g. Atc scm50 supplied as package or the same unit that also can be sold separatly and let the user make the crossover?
 
Mar 26, 2022 at 6:46 AM Post #3,293 of 4,620
Wouldn’t the natural solution be to have one unit that can be programed either by a crossover design for e.g. Atc scm50 supplied as package or the same unit that also can be sold separatly and let the user make the crossover?
I suppose it could be possible to generalise the design of DX amps, by giving each amp a configurable filter function:
  • low pass
  • band pass
  • high pass
then for each filter slope, allow configuration of:
  • crossover frequency
  • slope (1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th order)
To support 2-way, 3-way and 4-way speakers, each DX amp would have a DX output as well as a DX input. The amplifiers would then be daisy-chained using the DX connections, where all amplifiers receive the same output from the M Scaler or DAC.

So in a 3-way speaker setup, the first amp in the daisy chain can do treble, the next the midrange and then the final amp can do the bass. Daisy-chaining would also minimise the cable mess!

@Rob Watts what do you think about doing filtering to feed speakers in a passive bi-amp configuration? This would be where the speakers retain their internal crossovers, but there might be an advantage in improving the isolation of each driver from the other. e.g. your 803D3 speakers have bi-wire terminals. With two TT2s, one for bass and one for treble, you could bi-amp the speakers with a bit of carefully set up filtering. The digital filters wouldn't replicate the speaker's built-in crossover, but be further off, e.g. one octave higher for the bass low-pass.
 
Mar 26, 2022 at 7:06 AM Post #3,294 of 4,620
Mar 26, 2022 at 9:33 AM Post #3,295 of 4,620
No harm at all.


I had too had thought about such a device - a universal programmable 3 way active amp - but I suspect that the commercial potential would be very limited.
I guess not much as far as the commercial potential is concerned, and without any insight into such approaches, or actual benefits to be gained from them,my own personal preference is to try to AVOID crossover points and filters as much as possible in the first place?

That is imho one of the benefits of both good planar or electrostatic headphones AND speakers. Almost seamless reproduction from top to bottom. The more drivers involved the more problems to solve imho.

I may have mentioned it before but one of the most transparent speakers I have ever auditioned is still the almost, but not quite, full range ,ML electrostatic speaker XL ART which had no crossover point at all !
But it needed a subwoofer for really deep reaching bass intruments like double bass and organ.
Big electrostatic panels handled everything from above 20khz down to around 50hz.
Not quite enough for BIG Bach organ works like BWV 565 or Also Sprach Zarathustra and such ,but with a subwoofer added for such works a lot of good music could be played without any crossover filters needed.

Imho very few conventional speakers with up to three crossover points can compare with the transparency and effortless reproduction and lifelike soundstage of an electrostatic speaker with acoustic music.

My own compromise electrostatic speakers have one crossover point between electrostatic panels down to around 250hz and from there passive conventional bass drivers down to 32hz.
More modern MLs than mine use a class D active bass but to my ears do not sound better in the lower regions than old school passive ones. What was you impression on Romaz´s electrostatic 15A speakers in that respect?
A big problem with electrostatic speakers and bass is that the panels would have to be HUGE for really clean deep bass.
There are some by other makers ,but way too expensive for me, and even the XL ART is much more expensive than I am willing to pay for it new.
But I am keeping an eye out for second hand XL ART speakers. So far no luck. But there is currently a Dave for sale at a price that actually tempts me a bit. But only a bit. still not enough to bite. I am more interested in hearing what your upcoming Mscaler x will bring to the table SQ wise.
Meanwhile my current old ML Sequel II sound better and more transparent than many much more expensive conventional multi driver based speakers to me even with my humble Qutest Mscaler combo .
The benefits with the Sequel II being a very stable , pinpoint, quite big and transparent soundstage with reasonably good depth too. Although sometimes soundstage depth is where even a well recorded LP can still compete with Qutest/Mscaler imho.
And over most of the range the MLs also have low distortion levels until the conventional bass takes over from around 250hz.
I listen almost exclusively to unamplified acoustic instrumental music and the human voice both Western Classical and Asian and World music. Very rarely Western Pop genres music.
I never listen to RAP or HIP HOP or EDM!
And while I am on the "non grata" subject of musical taste , let me confess in my younger days ,yes I did go to the Disco sometimes, but I NEVER went there for the music , always played at ear damaging levels, but for entirely different reasons. And I always used both hearing protection and other protection when striking lucky!
Since my mid-teens ages ago,when I listen to music I do that ,ONLY that, and never anything else while doing so.

And although I also stream quite a lot of World Music via Youtube these days via Mscaler with its good SQ but annoying latency which forces me to close my eyes instead of watching, for example, Khatia Buniatishvili play so well. And I prefer to listen to whole works before turning my attention to other good music.
It was a bit surprising when I heard DAVE /Blu 2 via your laptop at Canjam in Singapore 2018 to see how random your music selection was.
This may sound very snobbish to many here , but random selection and shuffle is for kids imho.
Music is my ONE AND ONLY religion.

My musical attention span also extends for much longer than the average 4-5 minutes pop track demands, or like some old Rockers? here who apparently even use a Dave to listen to the Beatles or Johhny Cash in mono via Quad electrostatic speakers!
Nothing against the Beatles, but Johnny Cash is definitely NOT" my cup of tea".
I often listen to at least a whole act or even an entire Opera at night before going to sleep.
Wonderful way to wind down after a day to dive deep into a Mozart or Handel Opera for example .
Other nights I may choose an Indian Raga by Anoushka Shankar to wind down to.
Sorry about yet another VERY long winded and NOT politically correct post from CC.

PS.
I liked your first? attempt at recording unamplified acoustic instruments in a real venue without multimiking.
But I am still waiting for an answer from you regarding which ADC you actually used and what resolution the very short snippet was recorded at?
And I would also like to know how you feel about doing binaural recordings instead of resorting to crossfeed compromises for headphone listening?
Cheers Controversial Chris
 
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Mar 26, 2022 at 10:24 AM Post #3,296 of 4,620
I guess not much as far as the commercial potential is concerned, and without any insight into such approaches, or actual benefits to be gained from them,my own personal preference is to try to AVOID crossover points and filters as much as possible in the first place?

That is imho one of the benefits of both good planar or electrostatic headphones AND speakers. Almost seamless reproduction from top to bottom. The more drivers involved the more problems to solve imho.

I may have mentioned it before but one of the most transparent speakers I have ever auditioned is still the almost, but not quite, full range ,ML electrostatic speaker XL ART which had no crossover point at all !
But it needed a subwoofer for really deep reaching bass intruments like double bass and organ.
Big electrostatic panels handled everything from above 20khz down to around 50hz.
Not quite enough for BIG Bach organ works like BWV 565 or Also Sprach Zarathustra and such ,but with a subwoofer added for such works a lot of good music could be played without any crossover filters needed.

Imho very few conventional speakers with up to three crossover points can compare with the transparency and effortless reproduction and lifelike soundstage of an electrostatic speaker with acoustic music.

My own compromise electrostatic speakers have one crossover point between electrostatic panels down to around 250hz and from there passive conventional bass drivers down to 32hz.
More modern MLs than mine use a class D active bass but to my ears do not sound better in the lower regions than old school passive ones. What was you impression on Romaz´s electrostatic 15A speakers in that respect?
A big problem with electrostatic speakers and bass is that the panels would have to be HUGE for really clean deep bass.
There are some by other makers ,but way too expensive for me, and even the XL ART is much more expensive than I am willing to pay for it new.
But I am keeping an eye out for second hand XL ART speakers. So far no luck. But there is currently a Dave for sale at a price that actually tempts me a bit. But only a bit. still not enough to bite. I am more interested in hearing what your upcoming Mscaler x will bring to the table SQ wise.
Meanwhile my current old ML Sequel II sound better and more transparent than many much more expensive conventional multi driver based speakers to me even with my humble Qutest Mscaler combo .
The benefits with the Sequel II being a very stable , pinpoint, quite big and transparent soundstage with reasonably good depth too. Although sometimes soundstage depth is where even a well recorded LP can still compete with Qutest/Mscaler imho.
And over most of the range the MLs also have low distortion levels until the conventional bass takes over from around 250hz.
I listen almost exclusively to unamplified acoustic instrumental music and the human voice both Western Classical and Asian and World music. Very rarely Western Pop genres music.
I never listen to RAP or HIP HOP or EDM!
And while I am on the "non grata" subject of musical taste , let me confess in my younger days ,yes I did go to the Disco sometimes, but I NEVER went there for the music , always played at ear damaging levels, but for entirely different reasons. And I always used both hearing protection and other protection when striking lucky!
Since my mid-teens ages ago,when I listen to music I do that ,ONLY that, and never anything else while doing so.

And although I also stream quite a lot of World Music via Youtube these days via Mscaler with its good SQ but annoying latency which forces me to close my eyes instead of watching, for example, Khatia Buniatishvili play so well. And I prefer to listen to whole works before turning my attention to other good music.
It was a bit surprising when I heard DAVE /Blu 2 via your laptop at Canjam in Singapore 2018 to see how random your music selection was.
This may sound very snobbish to many here , but random selection and shuffle is for kids imho.
Music is my ONE AND ONLY religion.

My musical attention span also extends for much longer than the average 4-5 minutes pop track demands, or like some old Rockers? here who apparently even use a Dave to listen to the Beatles or Johhny Cash in mono via Quad electrostatic speakers!
Nothing against the Beatles, but Johnny Cash is definitely NOT" my cup of tea".
I often listen to at least a whole act or even an entire Opera at night before going to sleep.
Wonderful way to wind down after a day to dive deep into a Mozart or Handel Opera for example .
Other nights I may choose an Indian Raga by Anoushka Shankar to wind down to.
Sorry about yet another VERY long winded and NOT politically correct post from CC.

PS.
I liked your first? attempt at recording unamplified acoustic instruments in a real venue without multimiking.
But I am still waiting for an answer from you regarding which ADC you actually used and what resolution the very short snippet was recorded at?
And I would also like to know how you feel about doing binaural recordings instead of resorting to crossfeed compromises for headphone listening?
Cheers Controversial Chris
Christer, I always appreciate hearing your views and how much you enjoy music. I’m sure you equally appreciate that others get as much enjoyment from their listening preferences as you do. We do need evaluations from multiple views, even though I tend to agree with live unamplified music being the best reference. The only thing that would be controversial is the view that people listening to pop, other genres, background music, music while driving, rap or EDM do not enjoy what they are doing. Cheers!
 
Mar 26, 2022 at 11:44 AM Post #3,297 of 4,620
But there is currently a Dave for sale at a price that actually tempts me a bit. But only a bit. still not enough to bite.

I should bite if its a real good offer.

I recently bought my 2nd hand Dave for €6500. And i did cause Rob said he hasnt started working on its successor.

I find Dave in a true higher league compared to Qutest.. mainly cause it was the 1st time i experienced i can understand what artists are telling in their songs in musics that i couldnt before.. i mean the articulation of speech and song is just better to filter out. Not to mention the overall improvent of the sound.

Rick
 
Mar 26, 2022 at 12:46 PM Post #3,298 of 4,620
I should bite if its a real good offer.

I recently bought my 2nd hand Dave for €6500. And i did cause Rob said he hasnt started working on its successor.

I find Dave in a true higher league compared to Qutest.. mainly cause it was the 1st time i experienced i can understand what artists are telling in their songs in musics that i couldnt before.. i mean the articulation of speech and song is just better to filter out. Not to mention the overall improvent of the sound.

Rick
Thanks for your response,
I am aware of the improvements you mention ,but in my experience the improvements with an Mscaler added are around 10-15% over Qutest/Mscaler.
And the price it is selling for used here in Sweden where I live is NOT 6500 Euro ,it is 7500 Euro.

And I balk at that, especially considering the fact that I could possibly get one in SE-Asia probably a bit cheaper than 6000 Euro next winter if I can travel again?
When I checked prices in Indonesia a few years ago, Dave sold for around 6500 USD there brand new!
And I would expect second hand to be less than what even TT2 costs new here.
But who knows ? "that particular Avenue of Pleasure may be over" in both the short and long term contexts.

Maybe I should have made that trip from Singapore to Medan Sumatra, there and then?
Dave cost 8500 USD new in Singapore .
But I just got Qutest /Mscaler as a still quite good compromise .
And although I would not mind the notably higher resolution of low level details in densely scored complex acoustic music, Qutest /Mscaler are actually good enough to keep me rather happy with what I have got.
And TT2 with an Mscaler which I have been also thinking of getting used, at a hopefully even better price , is not so far behind Dave via headphones imho.
If it had not been for Covid,I would probably have had a TT2 /Mscaler or Dave/Mscaler by now.

Anyway there are probably much bigger issues to handle in the coming year/s than which of the expensive Chord toys to buy that we are discussing here.
Petrol is already almost twice as expensive as last year here ,and our food shops are possibly going to run out of products like eco bananas already in the next few weeks according to today´s news .
The future does not exactly look very bright, does it?
I am not nailed to the cross quite yet, but I already find it a bit difficult to sing ."Always look on the Bright Side of Life"
Oats porridge with dried raisins and power cuts??
I ´ve got to buy a solar powered solution ,battery thingy ,to run my Mscaler from during those before buying Dave.

Cheers CC
 
Mar 26, 2022 at 1:09 PM Post #3,299 of 4,620
Thanks for your response,
I am aware of the improvements you mention ,but in my experience the improvements with an Mscaler added are around 10-15% over Qutest/Mscaler.
And the price it is selling for used here in Sweden where I live is NOT 6500 Euro ,it is 7500 Euro.

And I balk at that, especially considering the fact that I could possibly get one in SE-Asia probably a bit cheaper than 6000 Euro next winter if I can travel again?
When I checked prices in Indonesia a few years ago, Dave sold for around 6500 USD there brand new!
And I would expect second hand to be less than what even TT2 costs new here.
But who knows ? "that particular Avenue of Pleasure may be over" in both the short and long term contexts.

Maybe I should have made that trip from Singapore to Medan Sumatra, there and then?
Dave cost 8500 USD new in Singapore .
But I just got Qutest /Mscaler as a still quite good compromise .
And although I would not mind the notably higher resolution of low level details in densely scored complex acoustic music, Qutest /Mscaler are actually good enough to keep me rather happy with what I have got.
And TT2 with an Mscaler which I have been also thinking of getting used, at a hopefully even better price , is not so far behind Dave via headphones imho.
If it had not been for Covid,I would probably have had a TT2 /Mscaler or Dave/Mscaler by now.

Anyway there are probably much bigger issues to handle in the coming year/s than which of the expensive Chord toys to buy that we are discussing here.
Petrol is already almost twice as expensive as last year here ,and our food shops are possibly going to run out of products like eco bananas already in the next few weeks according to today´s news .
The future does not exactly look very bright, does it?
I am not nailed to the cross quite yet, but I already find it a bit difficult to sing ."Always look on the Bright Side of Life"
Oats porridge with dried raisins and power cuts??
I ´ve got to buy a solar powered solution ,battery thingy ,to run my Mscaler from during those before buying Dave.

Cheers CC
Yeap all is relative.
I would keep my Qutest if i hadnt a agreement with my wife to sell it if i got my Dave. Just to use it in a second system or on the go.

Be sure to try direct drive HP out of RCA's cause i found theres truth in that more components in the analog circuit degrades transparency.

Are u in north or south in sweden?
I went from holland to germany to get Dave.
Lol the guy almost didnt sell after hearing it with HMS that i brought with me..
 
Mar 26, 2022 at 2:15 PM Post #3,300 of 4,620
Yeap all is relative.
I would keep my Qutest if i hadnt a agreement with my wife to sell it if i got my Dave. Just to use it in a second system or on the go.

Be sure to try direct drive HP out of RCA's cause i found theres truth in that more components in the analog circuit degrades transparency.

Are u in north or south in sweden?
I went from holland to germany to get Dave.
Lol the guy almost didnt sell after hearing it with HMS that i brought with me..
Hello again ,I am neither South nor North really, but I managed to squeeze about two weeks of downhill skiing totally and locally ,out of this miserable winter where I live at the Northern End of our second biggest lake.
Stunning Evening Sky over it right now!
I have an HD 800 and a HEKV2 as main two headphones to alternate between depending on the recording. How did you modd your Qutest? Not surprised if the seller almost changed his mind after hearing Dave with an Mscaler. Imho all Mscaler capable dacs improve much with an Mscaler added.To my ears and with my preferences in music, 99% acoustic music, the Mscaler is THE deciding factor.
Even Dave can sound a bit too digital and harsh without it.
I am very keen to get to hear how much Mscaler X will improve SQ over the current model.

Cheers CC
 
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