[Rob Watts]

Hi @Rob Watts,

I have a few last questions for 2021. Pre-pandemic, did you have an audio "go bag" since you are a frequent flyer?

If so, what were the contents of the bag? ["Hugo2", "HMS", "DCA Noire", "PowerAdd", "MSI Laptop", "KabelDirekt optical cable"]? Anything I'm missing or need correcting? Any specialized audio tools?

Will you be upgrading to the DCA Stealth? It seems like a natural progression since it's a DCA + Closed-Back.

https://danclarkaudio.com/dcastealth.html

You have a nice price/performance baseline for your home setup [TT2/HMS + SC cables + 803D]. It will be interesting if your new price/performance baseline for your travel setup will be [TT2/HMS or Hugo2/HMS + DCA Stealth]?

The products you allow to enter into your ecosystem may influence some of our purchasing decisions on non-Chord gear. If somehow we end up with the exact same chain, it gives us a better understanding when you share impressions.

A RW-approved thumbs up chain is something we will have confidence is absolutely correct minus the subjective tuning. The home setup is already a great example, now I'm wondering if the travel setup will evolve or stay put?

So my audio go too bag for flights used to be Hugo 2, M scaler, mobile phone, Dell lap-top, PowerAdd power bank, DCA Aeon 2. For hotels I would add a Hugo TT2 and a small pair of cheap speakers, or if I am not worried about weight my JBL Control Ones. Hopefully next year travel will resume, and I have asked DCA to send me the Stealth. I am very much looking forward to trying them out. Also I will be carrying some prototypes of new gear as well - but that's another story.

...this is one of the scariest posts I've ever read. Subjectively speaking, of course.

Yes I am inclined to agree. Enjoying music is a personal thing, and it's up to you to find out what floats your boat.

That said, I have heard some very well respected audio products that for me completely fail to function - and you can see why when you look very carefully at the measurements. If the measurements are seriously flawed, then it will sound wrong. I am certainly not saying that measurements are all important, but they do cover gross deficiencies.

Yes, I can see how that could be misinterpreted. Nothing is absolutely correct but I trust the 4 decades of RW experience on his pairings. The 803D and Noire are not absolutely correct. But with his extensive experience, they are "correct" for him. I try to balance what Audiophiles/Hobbyists gravitate towards versus Producers of Audio not Consumers of Audio. I'm interested in how Professionals choose their gear as "correct" may differ from Audiophile's "correct". Professionals are a different breed. Especially a passionate professional with 40 years of experience.

That's why I trust his Science on LPS, etc. He has extensively researched the fundamentals of LPS for decades. But there will always be Anti-Science folks that don't trust the Science. I trust due to respecting his research and thus his pairings are more on the "correct" side of things due to extensive experience. But yeah, nothing's perfect or absolutely correct.

Audiophiles are going to rationalize, "Hey, My LPS is different. Not all LPS are the same". "It sounds magnitudes better with an LPS".

No thanks, I'll trust the professional with 40 years of experience. Professionals are a different breed. I'll trust the doctors versus the redditors giving out medical advice.

Thanks for your vote of confidence in my hearing skills!

The loudspeakers and headphones I use are certainly not perfect - but they are up to the task. Most of my listening tests concern ultra small changes in the technical performance, and I objectively assess the sound quality using a range of tracks to listen to particular aspects of the sound quality. What I need from my transducers is the ability to resolve very small changes, and fortunately they are all good enough to reveal microscopic differences. Indeed yesterday I was listening to some very subtle changes - the numbers were scarily small - but I could just about discern a change subjectively. I often wonder how it is that we can hear ultra small changes, with transducers that have high levels of measurable distortion; fortunately we can. The reason we can is that the brain compensates for the ears poor technical performance - so the brain can deal with simple distortions. But digital errors are not simple, and totally unlike the errors the ear makes as a transducer - and that's why they are so audible, as the brain can't handle these kinds of errors (like noise floor modulation, small signal accuracy, or transient timing errors).

 

[Jawed]

@Rob Watts do transient timing errors get "magnified" as the signal gets smaller?

So for example quieter instruments or instruments that are playing further away in the soundstage suffer with increased transient timing errors when the recording is being made and then again when replayed through a DAC.

 

[Rob Watts]

If the internal architecture of the filter is correct, then the timing errors are independent of amplitude. So the transient timing errors happen identically for small signals with transients or the same signal at greater amplitude - you get the same timing errors. That said, what happens with a real filter is that individual instruments transients modulate the timing of transients for other instruments, as a particular transient runs through the filter window. This is why sinc coefficients are vital as it's only sinc that does not do this. So this timing intermodulation will be amplitude related - a large amplitude low frequency signal with a transient will cause more intermodulation than a small signal. But the effect on other transients is additive and proportionate to the amplitude.

As too the architecture of the filter being amplitude independent, I recently ran a test with a WTA filter that compared a small sine wave with a large value sine. The FFT on the simulated output data was absolutely identical - that is 0dBFS against a -301dB input gave perfect results in amplitude and phase. I knew the filter was OK, but I needed to rule some things out, as this filter required unexpectedly high accuracy for the coefficients, which gave much better depth perception - and this proved it wasn't down to the implementation of the filter.

 

[Kentajalli]

Yes, I heard the Hugo 2 with mscaler for two years and now Dave with mscaler for a year

Question, can Hugo2 handle mScaler full output to 768 ?
I was under the impression you need twin BNC for that, which Hugo2 doesn't (or does it?).
If that is the case, then Hugo2 and Dave connected to mScaler may sound different because of that fact.
I don't know - I have none of them, just curious.

 

[slumberman]

Question, can Hugo2 handle mScaler full output to 768 ?
I was under the impression you need twin BNC for that, which Hugo2 doesn't (or does it?).
If that is the case, then Hugo2 and Dave connected to mScaler may sound different because of that fact.
I don't know - I have none of them, just curious.

Hugo has dual coax in 1/8 inch format. It totally works up to 768 as it should!

 

[slumberman]

It's a very easy headphone to drive - Dave will give you 111dB SPL without clipping. That is ear damaging loud. So unless you want to colour the sound, (distort it plus loss of transparency) don't think about another amp. It will only damage musicality and transparency.

Hey Rob!

What about demanding headphones like the 1266 or Diana Phi?
I have tried them both ways and while I understand and hear the need for more powerful amps, the loss of clarity even if minor is evident.

 

[548184]

Amazing share. Thank you once again Rob Watts. It gives us a glimpse of the audio professional life / gear.

Something as simple as JBL Control Ones is very helpful and practical. I was not aware of that pairing, but that option may be handy one day. If it's good enough for your general purposes, it definitely should suffice.

Forgive me for not remembering you like to use old Nokia or old 'Nokia'-type phones as music sources. I forgot to add that to the go-kit.

I don't know if this is of interest, but it's a smartphone that runs a similar CPU as the Mojo or I guess we are using Classic Mojo these days:

https://www.crowdsupply.com/sutajio-kosagi/precursor

It may be a possible Nokia replacement option or if you can upload the Classic Mojo code to the precursor even better.

It just interests me what audio professionals let in their home. They are gifted or have the means for 6-digit loudspeakers and/or TOTL headphones on occasion. So when they choose the tool which works best for them, I like to try to follow their thought process. So thanks for sharing your thought process on that matter. When deciding on a transducer, I always ask myself what would Rob Watts or a professional do in this situation. Not the randos that hype everything up.

Loudspeakers are such a rabbit hole as my previous thought was the barrier of entry is a quarter of a million dollar loudspeakers to do Chord gear justice. So if the 803D does the job for RW, it lowers that barrier of entry. Something as simple within the product line as RW can easily have the 801D or the 802D, but he chose the 803D. A practical choice that does the job.

Even for solutions it's a similar approach. I try to attack them from a pro angle. A professional is not going to use an LPS with Chord gear. That's amatuer night at the Apollo. The fatigue alone with LPS must be so tiring.

That's why I'm loving your oven treated twisted solid core professional solution. Your not going to find that pro solution on any other thread.

Before receiving the DCA Stealth, this is the part no. on Mouser for the genuine Hirose connector if you get the desire to make your own headphone cable. DCA only sells the knockoff connector.

https://www.mouser.co.uk/c/?q=HR10A-7P-4P

I'm pretty sure that's the part no, but you can run it by DCA to double-check if needed.

This Japanese headphone cable site has the part no listed for example:

https://e4ua.jp/?p=3862

I'm excited for how the DCA Stealth pairing will turn out.

For my travel needs, I bring along a Eizo monitor when possible as I need a square screen with paper mode. Just like ear health, I need eye health tools to prevent fatigue. That's why I love to battery-power and ultra cap-power every component in the audio chain, it's just so fatigue-free.

 

[kennyb123]

Before receiving the DCA Stealth, this is the part no. on Mouser for the genuine Hirose connector if you get the desire to make your own headphone cable. DCA only sells the knockoff connector.

https://www.mouser.co.uk/c/?q=HR10A-7P-4P

Thanks for posting that.

 

[Kentajalli]

Thanks for posting that.

I have a pair, I do not need - sell at cost price from UK.

 

[Rob Watts]

Amazing share. Thank you once again Rob Watts. It gives us a glimpse of the audio professional life / gear.

Something as simple as JBL Control Ones is very helpful and practical. I was not aware of that pairing, but that option may be handy one day. If it's good enough for your general purposes, it definitely should suffice.

Forgive me for not remembering you like to use old Nokia or old 'Nokia'-type phones as music sources. I forgot to add that to the go-kit.

I don't know if this is of interest, but it's a smartphone that runs a similar CPU as the Mojo or I guess we are using Classic Mojo these days:

https://www.crowdsupply.com/sutajio-kosagi/precursor

It may be a possible Nokia replacement option or if you can upload the Classic Mojo code to the precursor even better.

It just interests me what audio professionals let in their home. They are gifted or have the means for 6-digit loudspeakers and/or TOTL headphones on occasion. So when they choose the tool which works best for them, I like to try to follow their thought process. So thanks for sharing your thought process on that matter. When deciding on a transducer, I always ask myself what would Rob Watts or a professional do in this situation. Not the randos that hype everything up.

Loudspeakers are such a rabbit hole as my previous thought was the barrier of entry is a quarter of a million dollar loudspeakers to do Chord gear justice. So if the 803D does the job for RW, it lowers that barrier of entry. Something as simple within the product line as RW can easily have the 801D or the 802D, but he chose the 803D. A practical choice that does the job.

Even for solutions it's a similar approach. I try to attack them from a pro angle. A professional is not going to use an LPS with Chord gear. That's amatuer night at the Apollo. The fatigue alone with LPS must be so tiring.

That's why I'm loving your oven treated twisted solid core professional solution. Your not going to find that pro solution on any other thread.

Before receiving the DCA Stealth, this is the part no. on Mouser for the genuine Hirose connector if you get the desire to make your own headphone cable. DCA only sells the knockoff connector.

https://www.mouser.co.uk/c/?q=HR10A-7P-4P

I'm pretty sure that's the part no, but you can run it by DCA to double-check if needed.

This Japanese headphone cable site has the part no listed for example:

https://e4ua.jp/?p=3862

I'm excited for how the DCA Stealth pairing will turn out.

For my travel needs, I bring along a Eizo monitor when possible as I need a square screen with paper mode. Just like ear health, I need eye health tools to prevent fatigue. That's why I love to battery-power and ultra cap-power every component in the audio chain, it's just so fatigue-free.

Thanks for that - I will buy some of those connectors.

Hey Rob!

What about demanding headphones like the 1266 or Diana Phi?
I have tried them both ways and while I understand and hear the need for more powerful amps, the loss of clarity even if minor is evident.

So with Dave and the 1266 you are looking at 98dB SPL max. The Diana Phi is 102 dB. Both are easy to drive from a current POV.

 

[Rebel Chris]

My dream is for a qutest sized upscaler. The same form factor as the rest of the qutest range.

Hopefully within the same price bracket as the qutest

 

[slumberman]

Thanks for that - I will buy some of those connectors.



So with Dave and the 1266 you are looking at 98dB SPL max. The Diana Phi is 102 dB. Both are easy to drive from a current POV.

Thank you Rob! I appreciate the time you took to reply.
Have a great day!

 

[548184]

Mouser Domestic economy shipping within the USA was ~$3.50 before the holidays:



So it's much easier to place a small order throughout the year if it's not a priority. The economy shipping option is hidden though. Gotta love a Warren Buffett highly efficient company.

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If your making your own headphone cable and you exclusively use Chord gear, I recommend considering RCA on the other end.

Just the difficulty level alone of soldering a Furutech Rhodium 6.3mm should make one seriously consider. The solder points on the 6.3mm are small so if you are not highly experienced, it's going to be extremely frustrating. If you make a minor error or even if it's perfect soldering, you may risk crosstalk due to wiring being so close together. I heard the Furutech Rhodium 6.3mm that the soldering doesn't stick well. I only use the Furutech Rhodium 6.3mm as that seems to be the standard and reference plug. There will be no need to braid into one big cable.

With RCA, soldering should be a breeze. The Hirose is unknown, but it seems like there is plenty of room. Also with WBT RCA, +Transparency, +Resolution and zero cross contamination issues. WBT connectors is a bit of a reference for Chord gear as they are known to fit and sound well. I can't confirm for 1-2 months until I receive my CIEM cable.

On my CIEM cable, it's going to be split into separate independent left and right cables. This allows me to swap left and right since the other end is IPX and if I use a Table Top Chord DAC, I don't have to worry about the RCA OUTs being far apart. This also allows 100% channel separation with the possibility of zero crosstalk.

Some headphone connectors have crosstalk issues. Possibly the sockets too. Using RCA instead can solve that, so you get what seems like a larger soundstage from lower crosstalk.

I did a video on these issues here:

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-hugo-2-the-official-thread.831345/page-1266

So the way this happens is when I design the PCB layout we have a reference point - this is where the feedback path for the DAC amplifier is taken - and so I set this reference point to be as close as possible to the headphone outputs, as it's the headphone outputs that need the lowest impedance. The RCA phono thus has an extra track length and for Hugo 2 that is an extra resistance of 3 milliohms. For driving loudspeakers, this would produce a tiny SQ change with the RCA phono sounding a tiny bit less precise, a bit softer and warmer in the bass. But I can't imagine this would be audible with headphones, as the impedances are much higher, and the back emf energy much lower too (particularly for planer headphones).

A much more likely explanation is the quality of the connectors being used. The connectors on Hugo 2 went through a process of evaluation and testing - even involving ripping the connectors apart - and I am confident in the SQ of the connectors used. But of course I have no control over the connectors and cabling you use, and that perhaps is more likely to explain any SQ differences.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/cho...fficial-thread.831345/page-1268#post-15888847

Yes. Its SE.
But I don't know SE can be this good before I hear the Hugo2 personally to believe it.

Yes. All outputs are connected from the same place within Hugo2. Theoretically, the sound qualities should be same.

However, the sound coming out from RCA to 4.4 adaptor is different. I have compared it with ddhifi 3.5 to 4.4 adaptor.

In summary, it's not a day & night but the sound stage is obviously larger while the details and the sound signature remain same.

I can hear a better "sound/air between the space" due to a wider sound stage in some recording. (It's not about the instrument separation or positioning)

I don't know why and how this happen. Maybe like what currawang mentioned in earlier post and video, it's due to RCA output can solve the crosstalk issue.

Again, it's not day & night different but enough to let me enjoy and appreciate my music more

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-hugo-2-the-official-thread.831345/post-15880034

The impedance is the same since it is connected to the same source inside the box. As a wise person has said, if there is a difference it is probably due to less crosstalk when using RCA.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/cho...fficial-thread.831345/page-1267#post-15886198

I have measured the inset diameter for the RCA phono at 13.0 mm. Given the 13.6 mm diameter is at the larger knurled end, I think the WBT will easily fit.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/cho...official-thread.831345/page-176#post-13408476

I also noticed same thing, RCA outs directly to headphones sounded better than 3.5mm, better channel separation (less crosstalk), more focus, imaging, slightly more instrument separation. I already wrote about this finding 1 month ago, maybe now more people will find this interesting.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-hugo-2-the-official-thread.831345/post-14015214

Thanks Miketlse. There's been some discussion/debate that Hugo2 sounds better (improved soundstage/imaging, clarity, dynamics) when a headphone is connected to the RCA jacks instead of one of the headphone outs. A bunch of people have posted that this isn't possible because they both go back to the same internal circuit. However, those who have experimented insist there is a clear difference. There are some theories as to why this--may--be the case.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/cho...official-thread.831345/page-927#post-14422771

Does anyone know if there has been further development on the headphone out vs. RCA out? I've tried to read back through the thread but there didn't seem to be any real consensus. Has anyone done more experimenting? Currawong mentioned in a youtube video that he seemed to think it had something to do with crosstalk and the quality of adapters that were used.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-hugo-2-the-official-thread.831345/post-14422726

A small 3.5 mm connector plus RCA plugs is what we began with (see the first pic); after we confirmed that such improvement is genuine (I could still recall how stunned I was by the separation, 3D, sense of living presence and naturalness), we moved on even more aggressively by making a special headphone cable having RCA plugs at the other end to connect directly to the Hugo 2 without the need to go through the 3.5 mm connector first (see the next pic). We have been sticking to this set up since then...

Have to be frank, we still have no clue why the Hugo 2's RCA out would sound better than the headphone out, yet I enjoy the sound of this set up so much that I thought I should perhaps share it with more people.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-hugo-2-the-official-thread.831345/post-14013729

Wondering how many have also tried using the RCA out (instead of the "headphone outputs") for headphones and earphones; once I and my friends tried this, we are never going back to the headphone out. Everything from separation, sound stage, dynamic to naturalness is being taken to a totally different level. Just amazing.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/cho...official-thread.831345/page-709#post-14013122

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Also, on my CIEM cable we are going with the WBT Cooper connectors not the Silver. The Cooper balances things out with the Silver raw materials. A WBT Silver may be too hot.

For 2022, I'm going to enjoy the CIEM side since I worked so hard to get it to this reference point. But for 2023, WBT Cooper + RW's Solid Core recipe + Genuine Hirose may be in order. It's dependent on if the DCA Stealth will be RW's primary.

It may be nice to know for some on which solder type that Rob Watts recommends. I have my own preference, but that can easily change.

Also, I don't know how headphones via RCA out will handle the power from the Table Tops. I don't know if it will overpower, so care is needed.

 

[Rob Watts]

Way back in the 1980s I tried AB testing different solders - I used all the available types then (about 5 if memory serves) and the best solder by far was low melting point silver solder (Sn62) which has 2% silver. It gave better detail resolution and depth perception than the other solders, even when soldering with tin plated wires.

When soldering with silver plated wires or SMD components it is essential to use sliver bearing solders. This is because the silver leaches into the joint creating an intermetallic layer at the interface within the soldered joint which can create poor solder joints. The presence of silver in the solder prevents a bad intermetallic layer from forming.

The gold plated version of the Hirose connector is ex stock with Farnell (part no 2929799) too.

 

[Kentajalli]

Way back in the 1980s I tried AB testing different solders - I used all the available types then (about 5 if memory serves) and the best solder by far was low melting point silver solder (Sn62) which has 2% silver. It gave better detail resolution and depth perception than the other solders, even when soldering with tin plated wires.

I also tried high silver content solder those days, indeed still do to this day - but in my case it had nothing to do with sound quality.
It flows better! it means no dry joints. and in the case of my Valve amps, it will not go brittle and crack after 20 years, causing sparks and equipment failure.
My reason was more for practical reasons, the price was not that high those days, I still have two 500g rolls, still in packaging.
Perhaps grand kids could use them!