Wagner, where to start?

[Facade19]

I would like to start a Wagner collection and upon looking at amazon the output is so overwhelming that I do not know where to start.
The only composition that I have heard of him has to be the flight of the valkyrie. To be very honest I do not know a place to start and that is why I am turning to you folks. Is there a "beginners" set, maybe something like an overture set? I would really welcome any suggestions and thank each and everyone that will take the time to reply right now.
Thank you very much.

 

[PSmith08]

Start with an overtures and preludes collection. Klemperer's EMI set is splendid. Then get some "bleeding chunks" (excerpts) sets. Karl Böhm's "The Best of the Ring" is a good one. Then, buy Der fliegende Holländer (Klemperer or Keilberth will both do nicely) and listen to it scene-by-scene or act-by-act (depending on the version) reading along with the libretto. Stick with it until you "get" it. Do the same for Lohengrin, Tannhäuser, and Meistersinger. Spend more time with Tristan, just listening to the music, then just reading the libretto, and then working your way through the synthesis. For the Ring, you should buy one of the libretto-only books and read that until you follow the story very well. Then, buy Georg Solti's set and listen to that as your source, following as closely as possible. Parsifal should be approached like Tristan.

There is no royal road to Wagner. Pick a place to start and expect to spend a very long time studying and listening.

 

[Jubei]

Personally, I love Wagner's overtures / orchestral pieces but have never managed to like his operas in full.

I second the EMI Klemperer set - it is decent.

 

[musicmind]

The Knappertsbusch recordings of Parsifal are highly regarded.

 

[DavidMahler]

Hey Facade.

Wagner is a tricky thing, because the music which he left behind is some of the most important ever, however, if you're not an opera fan then some of his music will be hard listening. However, there is one piece he wrote that I feel even a non-opera fan would love in its entirety. And that is Tristan und Isolde. He wrote bigger works (the ring cycle), but Tristan is his most important work and greatest. I have 5 versions of it, but I only listen to one, Karl Bohm's on Deutsche Gramophon, with an all star cast. Bohm takes a brisk pace throughout and it works extremely well.

As the scriabin fan which I know you are, I think you will appreciate Tristan. It was the first piece in the history of music that broke away from a tonal center. And Scriabin took a lot from this when composing his symphonic poems like Prometheus.

If you like Tristan, try Die Meistersinger von Nurnberg conducted by Karajan which is totally different in feel.

And after that, of course you should get a Ring Cycle. I only own one ring cycle and its the Solti Ring (which coincidently has sold 17 million copies and was the first studio Ring)

Good luck on your purchase.

 

[bigshot]

The best place to start is with videos of his operas, so you can get a feeling for their totality. The best video I've seen is the Boulez Ring. The Solti Ring is a good first Ring if you want to stick with music.

I've found the most accessible operas are The Ring (listen to it in order and read along with the libretto), Tannhauser, Dutchman. Meistersinger and Lohengrin. Tristan and Parsifal are great, but they are much slower.

It's not hard to figure out the best performances of whatever you decide to start with. There are a million sites and threads on that topic. My personal favorite Wagner recording is Walter's first Act of Die Walkure from the late 30s. It has singing that has never been matched- Melchior and Lehmann. Not hi fi, but good where it counts.

See ya
Steve

 

[lionel marechal]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigshot /img/forum/go_quote.gif The best place to start is with videos of his operas, so you can get a feeling for their totality. The best video I've seen is the Boulez Ring. The Solti Ring is a good first Ring if you want to stick with music. I've found the most accessible operas are The Ring (listen to it in order and read along with the libretto), Tannhauser, Dutchman. Meistersinger and Lohengrin. Tristan and Parsifal are great, but they are much slower. It's not hard to figure out the best performances of whatever you decide to start with. There are a million sites and threads on that topic. My personal favorite Wagner recording is Walter's first Act of Die Walkure from the late 30s. It has singing that has never been matched- Melchior and Lehmann. Not hi fi, but good where it counts. See ya Steve

I do agree, I would not start with extracts. I would start with a full opera, readin the story in your own languqge at the same time. You could listen several time to Das Rheingold before going to the others so you can get used to some themes, to wagner music.

In my opinion, watchin gthe video would help tremendeously. I recommend Boulez as well. The video is going to help A LOT to understand the story and it would be easier later to listen to the music without the videos.

My 2 cents, and from somebody who started to appreciate it recently only, after having doing that. Previously, I had listen to extracts and stuff, but never enjoyed it.

Lionel

 

[Sordel]

I agree with those who have come out against listening to an instrumental compilation: you'll get some great music (Siegfried's Death March is stunning) but it will do a very bad job of introducing the depth and complexity of Wagner's dramatic music.

One of Wagner's (several) major innovations in opera was to treat the entire opera as a musically coherent, rather than a series of arias with recitative connecting them. For this reason, a work such as Gotterdammerung really does function as one long work, and unless you're willing to commit your time and energy to understanding his operas in those terms then there's very little to get out of Wagner.

I went from DVDs of the Ring Cycle, to listening to the excellent Deryck Cooke illustrated lecture (that was originally part of the Solti set) and then to seeing the entire thing on stage. Although I don't actually own the Solti set, I'd say that was a great place to start.

 

[DavidMahler]

I feel starting with DVDs is probably not the best way to get into the musical aspect of Wagner. I would say the DVDs are like a fun addition to the CDs because you are able to see in action the events which the music is trying to bring across. But when we're talking about Wagner's music, and musical genius, the DVDs are a distraction. The DVDs are the best way to understand the opera's dialogue, but not the music........Also I don't feel starting out with the Ring Cycle is the way to go. If you're unfamiliar with Wagner and opera then a 14 hour piece is not going to grab you right away.

I get saddened to think that music as great as wagner's is thought to be enhanced by visualizations. If that is true then his music is not worth as much as it is thought to be. I say start with a single opera on CD and listen to it just as you've listened to any other piece of music you now love. Then once the music grabs you (if it does), go out and see the opera live or buy it on dvd.......but do that second.

 

[mbhaub]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidMahler /img/forum/go_quote.gif I get saddened to think that music as great as wagner's is thought to be enhanced by visualizations. If that is true then his music is not worth as much as it is thought to be. I

This is a rather odd point of view in my opinion: since Wagner conceived his operas as all-encompassing artistic events that included theatre as much as the music. Sure, I can appreciate Wagner just for the music, but it has to be stated that seeing Wagner adds a huge amount of enjoyment, and that's why so many Wagnerites will travel endelssly to see live productions.

I'd start with one of the great orchestral compilations: Boult on EMI. Then, if you think you want to wade deeper, try The Flying Dutchman. It's the shortest of the operas, and very entertaining. I'd certainly recommend this on DVD to anyone: the Bayreuth version on DG is superb. If you want cd only, Solti sures turns in a barnstorming version.

For the Ring, the Boulez is excellent, the staging non-traditional. For cd only, I prefer Karajan to Solti, but either is excellent, and the Barenboim has a lot going for it besides a low price.

Wagner can be very addicting, and very expensive. Read G. B. Shaw's "The Perfect Wagnerite", too!

 

[DavidMahler]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbhaub /img/forum/go_quote.gif This is a rather odd point of view in my opinion: since Wagner conceived his operas as all-encompassing artistic events that included theatre as much as the music.

This is true, though if you're building a music library of which Wagner will be a part, it seems awkward to me that Wagner should be examined as an all-encompassing creator in comparison with other artists. I've seen a few Wagner operas, and its not the drama or the costumes, or even the libretti that got me there. It's the music......and before his creations are examined as pieces of Drama, art, poetry and music all wrapped into one, I suspect a music listener should collect just the music first. When I listen to Wagner I try to forget that people are actually singing words....I don't really listen to the story. I bring to his music what I bring to Brahms music or Mahler's music or Bach's music......and that is I just listen to it as music. This wasn't Wagner's intentions, this I know......but if his music is worth what I think it is, then it shouldn't be glued to all the other art forms he attempted to encompass..............sometimes I think it is that huge concoction which distorts the importance and greatness of his music.

 

[mbhaub]

I seen more than a few Wagner operas, and you're right about one thing: a bad staging can so distract from the music that you forget what's important. A ridiculous Parsifal set in 1990's New York comes to mind. Fortunately, the three Rings I've been to avoided the old cornball Valkyries with horns stuff. But I eagerly go to Dutchman since effective staging makes that work even more creepy and dramatic.

I grew up in the sticks, and the only access I had to opera was the Met broadcasts which I hated missing. I listened attentively, but could only imagine what the sets and costumes were like. My then-zero knowledge of German made following the action as it were, impossible. When I finally got to the opera house for my first live Dutchman, I was stunned and convinced once and for all that great staging is certainly a major reason some people love the opera, and there was nothing wrong with that. I also realized by then, that one's knowledge of German is unimportant, as even German-born listeners couldn't understand the thick Wagnerian prose, either. So, next came intense score study and learning the libretto well ahead of a performance. One of the worst developments in opera in the past decade has been the projection of the translation above the stage. Now you focus on the words and the music moves the background -- you don't hear it. I don't need words for any opera, but your eye is still forced to look at it. Stupid, stupid, stupid! On DVD, maybe using the subtitles the first time is ok, but then shut the things off and wallow in the glorious sound.

 

[PSmith08]

I would warn against just buying a DVD of some staged production. It would be unfortunate were some neophyte to stumble into Patrice Chéreau's 1976 production or Harry Kupfer's 1991 staging. Neither production is about Wagner, preferring to focus on what the directors think is going on. Richard Wagner wrote very specifically what was going on and how he wanted it to be portrayed. Those suggestions (when not outright demands) aren't tenable these days, but going off into left field - if that - is not the best way to resolve the situation.

 

[Facade19]

Wow thank you all very much for fantastic replies!!!
First and foremost I am not a big fan of opera, since I actually have never given it a fair chance. Another reason is because whenever I did give a try I rarely understood anything (and I speak German fluently).
However my interest for Wagner has grown since I thoroughly enjoy Richard Strauss and Franz Liszt. Somewhere in between I have known for a while now that something has been missing.
Though this might sound silly, but for a long time now I have been trying to avoid Wagner for his idelogical views regarding ethinic/religious groups. While there is still some resentment regarding Wagner's view, I have come to reason that Wagner was a prick of a human being, but as an artist he was a genius (that conclusion is thoroughly based on readings I have done).
Now regarding an overture and prelude set, I have seen a few recommendations. All in all which one should I go with for now?
Furthermore to add I think that opera certainly finds its appeal through the visual presentation, if the music cannot reconcile with the visual elements, then the appeal loses its force.
But once again thank you very much for all the replies.

 

[bigshot]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidMahler /img/forum/go_quote.gif I get saddened to think that music as great as wagner's is thought to be enhanced by visualizations.

Uh... Wagner was the one who wrote the visualizations! The stage is every bit as important to Wagner as the pit. I've only been lucky enough to see the Ring live on stage and I can tell you it was like nothing I've ever experienced before. The closest I've come to that out of the theater is the Boulez Ring on DVD.

See ya
Steve