[SP Wild]

Quote:

This is an interesting thread, and if I had read it months earlier I may have gone with a SE amp like the WA5. But maybe not, it takes up a lot more space and cost a good bit more as well. I do know that my WA22 sounds much better when used in balanced mode, so perhaps the whole single-ended thing is a marketing ploy 

 
My other balanced amp is the Alesis RA150 and it doesn't even use XLRs, it has two 1/4" stereo TRS input jacks (in addition to the RCA inputs for SE use). I am using a banana plug to 4-pin female XLR pigtail for headphone use with it. Soon I will have a balanced DAC to hook to it with XLR to 1/4" cables, and it should be interesting to see if that solves the channel noise issue I am hearing in SE mode on that setup.
 

I had you in mind when I saw the outputs of this amp.  The only real conclusion that can be made is that the improvements you heard would have been because the conductors in your balanced cable is of higher quality than the standard cable.  In which case one might as well get the better conductor terminated in TRS plugs to retain compatibility with all headphone amps.  I'm sure the amp still sounds stellar no matter which hole you use.

 

[El_Doug]

the LD MK VI is OTL, bro, so your entire writeup is pointless.  it looks like youve never even listened to the LD offering, given your comments
 
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Someone AB compared WA22 and LD MK VI+. He found MK VI+ had better sound. I doubted this conclusion ever because it was hard to believe a $700 amp could beat a $2000 one.   When I see inside of WA22 here, I think I understand why and that should be ture.......

Sorry to burst your bubble, but as good as an amp the LD MK VI is the Woo WA22 is in another league all together. 
 
What these internal photos do not illustrate is the quality of the Output Transformers, Woo Audio actually hand-winds theirs in house.
 
Most of the circuits for all current tubed based amplifiers date back to the 1950's and earlier; It is the quality of the iron that often separates one amp from the next. 
 
An amp can have all the fancy, boutique audiophile parts but if the output transformer is not up to the task there will be issues across the frequency spectrum, notably the bass and highs which can adversely effect the overall sound. 
 
Here is a link to a review from 6 moons that shows the inside of the Woo facility:
 
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/wooaudio/5.html
 
Jack's amps are handcrafted entirely in the USA much in the spirit of McIntosh that also does all of their own transformer manufacturing which is a very painstaking process requiring much skill.
 
If I were to show you the inside of a MC275V one might draw the same conclusion that a much less expensive tube amp is "better" but sometimes a picture does not tell the whole story. 

 

[El_Doug]

That's what she said
 
Quote:

I'm sure the amp still sounds stellar no matter which hole you use.

 

[Frank I]

One thing I can say for sure Woo amps are well built and sound very very good in the time I have heard them. They are of a very high quality and worth their asking price. Little Dot amps use printed circuit boars and the Woo is all point to point in a bulletproof chasis. They would not have the following if they were not good. Sometimes people equate lower price and think it is better. As good as little dot is ait price point Woo is a major step up over them

 

[fatcat28037]

Would you better explain the underlined sentence in your quote. I don't understand. Thanks.
Quote:

I understand that this amp is a balanced amp internally and will realise the full benefits of using a balanced source.  I have no doubt that it sounds fantastic judging by all the praise it receives.  The only thing that concerns me, is that majority of the people do not realise that sending their headphones to be modified to XLR connectors for use with the WA22 is still using the exact same output as the 1/4 TRS jacks, with the only benefit being a superior connection.
 
I believe the XLR outputs on this amp should be omitted as a matter of goodwill.

 

[SP Wild]

Quote:

Would you better explain the underlined sentence in your quote. I don't understand. Thanks.
Quote:

I understand that this amp is a balanced amp internally and will realise the full benefits of using a balanced source.  I have no doubt that it sounds fantastic judging by all the praise it receives.  The only thing that concerns me, is that majority of the people do not realise that sending their headphones to be modified to XLR connectors for use with the WA22 is still using the exact same output as the 1/4 TRS jacks, with the only benefit being a superior connection.
 
I believe the XLR outputs on this amp should be omitted as a matter of goodwill.

 

 
It means the signal coming out of the "balanced" connectors is 100 percent identical to the signal coming out of the 1/4 inch TRS jacks.  Using the 1/4 inch TRS would be similar to the principle of a 3 channel B22, but better, because the WA22 is internally balanced...think 3.5 channel B22 if you like.
 

 

[fatcat28037]

 
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Quote:

Would you better explain the underlined sentence in your quote. I don't understand. Thanks.
Quote:

I understand that this amp is a balanced amp internally and will realise the full benefits of using a balanced source.  I have no doubt that it sounds fantastic judging by all the praise it receives.  The only thing that concerns me, is that majority of the people do not realise that sending their headphones to be modified to XLR connectors for use with the WA22 is still using the exact same output as the 1/4 TRS jacks, with the only benefit being a superior connection.
 
I believe the XLR outputs on this amp should be omitted as a matter of goodwill.

 

 
It means the signal coming out of the "balanced" connectors is 100 percent identical to the signal coming out of the 1/4 inch TRS jacks.  Using the 1/4 inch TRS would be similar to the principle of a 3 channel B22.
 

Going back and looking at Jack's schematic I see what you mean, however in the TRS o/p the negitives are now combined which I believe would "unbalance" the single. Is my understanding of this incorrect? 

 

[SP Wild]

Quote:

 
Quote:

Quote:

Would you better explain the underlined sentence in your quote. I don't understand. Thanks.
Quote:

I understand that this amp is a balanced amp internally and will realise the full benefits of using a balanced source.  I have no doubt that it sounds fantastic judging by all the praise it receives.  The only thing that concerns me, is that majority of the people do not realise that sending their headphones to be modified to XLR connectors for use with the WA22 is still using the exact same output as the 1/4 TRS jacks, with the only benefit being a superior connection.
 
I believe the XLR outputs on this amp should be omitted as a matter of goodwill.

 

 
It means the signal coming out of the "balanced" connectors is 100 percent identical to the signal coming out of the 1/4 inch TRS jacks.  Using the 1/4 inch TRS would be similar to the principle of a 3 channel B22.
 

Going back and looking at Jack's schematic I see what you mean, however in the TRS o/p the negitives are now combined which I believe would "unbalance" the single. Is my understanding of this incorrect? 

Yes.
 
Edit:  I mean no. 
 
or very specifically - yes, you are not incorrect. 

 

[vinyllp33]

Yes, I am familiar with the sound and I actually used to own a LDII++. 
 
Sorry for any confusion what I meant to say that in the case of the WA22 one should not judge the sound solely based on the internal photos due to the fact that it is a transformer coupled design and when utilized in a tube amplifier circuit they have a huge impact on the sound.
 
I meant no disrespect to Little Dot as they do make some fine sounding amplifiers.
Quote:

the LD MK VI is OTL, bro, so your entire writeup is pointless.  it looks like youve never even listened to the LD offering, given your comments
 
Quote:

    
     Quote:

Someone AB compared WA22 and LD MK VI+. He found MK VI+ had better sound. I doubted this conclusion ever because it was hard to believe a $700 amp could beat a $2000 one.   When I see inside of WA22 here, I think I understand why and that should be ture.......

Sorry to burst your bubble, but as good as an amp the LD MK VI is the Woo WA22 is in another league all together. 
 
What these internal photos do not illustrate is the quality of the Output Transformers, Woo Audio actually hand-winds theirs in house.
 
Most of the circuits for all current tubed based amplifiers date back to the 1950's and earlier; It is the quality of the iron that often separates one amp from the next. 
 
An amp can have all the fancy, boutique audiophile parts but if the output transformer is not up to the task there will be issues across the frequency spectrum, notably the bass and highs which can adversely effect the overall sound. 
 
Here is a link to a review from 6 moons that shows the inside of the Woo facility:
 
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/wooaudio/5.html
 
Jack's amps are handcrafted entirely in the USA much in the spirit of McIntosh that also does all of their own transformer manufacturing which is a very painstaking process requiring much skill.
 
If I were to show you the inside of a MC275V one might draw the same conclusion that a much less expensive tube amp is "better" but sometimes a picture does not tell the whole story. 

 

 

[grokit]

 
Quote:

I understand that this amp is a balanced amp internally and will realise the full benefits of using a balanced source.  I have no doubt that it sounds fantastic judging by all the praise it receives.  The only thing that concerns me, is that majority of the people do not realise that sending their headphones to be modified to XLR connectors for use with the WA22 is still using the exact same output as the 1/4 TRS jacks, with the only benefit being a superior connection.

 
Quote:

I had you in mind when I saw the outputs of this amp.  The only real conclusion that can be made is that the improvements you heard would have been because the conductors in your balanced cable is of higher quality than the standard cable.  In which case one might as well get the better conductor terminated in TRS plugs to retain compatibility with all headphone amps.  I'm sure the amp still sounds stellar no matter which hole you use.

 

The way I understand it, the WA22 sounds way better when using the balanced XLR jacks than over the TRS plugs for the headphones, but only when it's passing through a balanced source via the XLR inputs as opposed to an SE source via the RCA jacks. Mine has been modified to only accept balanced sources for this reason and it is consensus opinion in the Woo threads that if you're using the WA22 single-ended then you are only using half of it, literally. Or another words:
 
 
Quote:

[size=medium]...no phase splitter is needed because the source is XLR (balanced). As for the RCA input, only ½ of the input is used and the efficiency is roughly dropped 50%. In other words, the RCA input will not take advantage of this design. You must use a balanced source to get the best out of the WA22.[/size]
 
[size=medium]Hope that clarifies.[/size]
 
[size=medium]-Jack[/size]

 
 
The unfortunate limiting factor for me is that I don't re-cable headphones that are factory hardwired for single-ended use, so there are a lot of headphones that I will never hear at their best from this amp.

 

[vermellfort]

 
Quote:

The way I understand it, the WA22 sounds way better when using the balanced XLR jacks than over the TRS plugs for the headphones, but only when it's passing through a balanced source via the XLR inputs as opposed to an SE source via the RCA jacks. Mine has been modified to only accept balanced sources for this reason and it is consensus opinion in the Woo threads that if you're using the WA22 single-ended then you are only using half of it, literally. Or another words
 

The way I see it is that the amp sounds its best when feeded with a balanced source, since its capable to take advantage of the balanced signal through the XLR inputs.
But when it comes to the outputs, TRS and XLR are the same and diferent sound quality between them can be only attributed to the different quality of the headphones connectors or wiring.

 

[grokit]

Quote:

 
Quote:

The way I understand it, the WA22 sounds way better when using the balanced XLR jacks than over the TRS plugs for the headphones, but only when it's passing through a balanced source via the XLR inputs as opposed to an SE source via the RCA jacks. Mine has been modified to only accept balanced sources for this reason and it is consensus opinion in the Woo threads that if you're using the WA22 single-ended then you are only using half of it, literally. Or another words

The way I see it is that the amp sounds its best when feeded with a balanced source, since its capable to take advantage of the balanced signal through the XLR inputs.
But when it comes to the outputs, TRS and XLR are the same and diferent sound quality between them can be only attributed to the different quality of the headphones connectors or wiring.

 
So with the WA22 the TRS plug will sound as good as the XLR plug(s) on a balanced headphone, as long as the source is balanced and using the balanced XLR inputs? My HD800, which has a pretty HQ stock SE cable, seemed to take a pretty major step up with the modest DHC Molecule balanced cable after long a/b comparisons back and forth but it could have still been placebo I suppose.

 

[vermellfort]

 
Quote:

So with the WA22 the TRS plug will sound as good as the XLR plug(s) on a balanced headphone, as long as the source is balanced and using the balanced XLR inputs? My HD800, which has a pretty HQ stock SE cable, seemed to take a pretty major step up with the modest DHC Molecule balanced cable after long a/b comparisons back and forth but it could have still been placebo I suppose.

I could not either compare directly both outputs in equivalent conditions since I had the stock SE cable and a Cardas balanced. So, I don't know how much of the improvement perceived was due to the better quality of the cable and how much to the output.
The benefit of balanced outputs (as far I know and again excuse my little knowledge) is that there are two signals (hot and cold) that complement each other in order to achieve a better control of the driver and thus increase its performance. Having a look at the internals and according to Mr. Woo's schematics, only one signal gets to the TRS and, from there jumps straight on the XLR. So, there's no cold signal: only hot and ground.
To me, it would be the same to have a XLR-to-SE adaptor if this amp only had the TRS output.

 

[fatcat28037]

 
Quote:

 
Quote:

I understand that this amp is a balanced amp internally and will realise the full benefits of using a balanced source.  I have no doubt that it sounds fantastic judging by all the praise it receives.  The only thing that concerns me, is that majority of the people do not realise that sending their headphones to be modified to XLR connectors for use with the WA22 is still using the exact same output as the 1/4 TRS jacks, with the only benefit being a superior connection.

 
Quote:

I had you in mind when I saw the outputs of this amp.  The only real conclusion that can be made is that the improvements you heard would have been because the conductors in your balanced cable is of higher quality than the standard cable.  In which case one might as well get the better conductor terminated in TRS plugs to retain compatibility with all headphone amps.  I'm sure the amp still sounds stellar no matter which hole you use.

 

The way I understand it, the WA22 sounds way better when using the balanced XLR jacks than over the TRS plugs for the headphones, but only when it's passing through a balanced source via the XLR inputs as opposed to an SE source via the RCA jacks. Mine has been modified to only accept balanced sources for this reason and it is consensus opinion in the Woo threads that if you're using the WA22 single-ended then you are only using half of it, literally. Or another words:
 
 
Quote:

[size=medium]...no phase splitter is needed because the source is XLR (balanced). As for the RCA input, only ½ of the input is used and the efficiency is roughly dropped 50%. In other words, the RCA input will not take advantage of this design. You must use a balanced source to get the best out of the WA22.[/size]
 
[size=medium]Hope that clarifies.[/size]
 
[size=medium]-Jack[/size]

 
 
The unfortunate limiting factor for me is that I don't re-cable headphones that are factory hardwired for single-ended use, so there are a lot of headphones that I will never hear at their best from this amp.

 Some phones like the D7000,and some Grados have 4 wires at the TRS plug so it's just a case of reterminating, not recabling.

 

[fatcat28037]

Quote:

Quote:

 
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Quote:

Would you better explain the underlined sentence in your quote. I don't understand. Thanks.
Quote:

I understand that this amp is a balanced amp internally and will realise the full benefits of using a balanced source.  I have no doubt that it sounds fantastic judging by all the praise it receives.  The only thing that concerns me, is that majority of the people do not realise that sending their headphones to be modified to XLR connectors for use with the WA22 is still using the exact same output as the 1/4 TRS jacks, with the only benefit being a superior connection.
 
I believe the XLR outputs on this amp should be omitted as a matter of goodwill.

 

 
It means the signal coming out of the "balanced" connectors is 100 percent identical to the signal coming out of the 1/4 inch TRS jacks.  Using the 1/4 inch TRS would be similar to the principle of a 3 channel B22.
 

Going back and looking at Jack's schematic I see what you mean, however in the TRS o/p the negitives are now combined which I believe would "unbalance" the singal. Is my understanding of this incorrect? 

Yes.
 
Edit:  I mean no. 
 
or very specifically - yes, you are not incorrect. 

So the XLR o/ps are balanced and the TRS op is unbalanced. Given this, why would you suggest the XLR outputs be omitted as a matter of goodwill?