[Zanth]

I am not trying to draw readers away from Head-fi; however, many AA posters are the engineers or marketting reps of the Big Boy players. What we need are more amp companies designing headphones amps. We have a nice collection of headphones, but more would be better. More headphone amps, from larger companies would create competition. The companies need to feel they are not working in vain. They need us to speak our minds. I personally know many at AA who feel that us Headphone enthusiasts are nutjobs who simply can't afford speakers. I'm sorry...when I reach $10, 000 in a headphone setup, including multiple cans, amps, cables etc....I believe the extreme has been reached and my choice is headphones...NOT speakers. We know this to be true. Many don't. There are those at AA that request info about headphones. The valuable responses are often from Head-fiers but there is little discussion. Usually the answer is: get the RS-1s, get the HD600s, try those fantangled Etymotics. Oh I heard Beyerdynamics are good.....

You get my point. We need to merge the two communities. Head-fi will ALWAYS be Head-fi. No other forum is like it in my opinion. Audio Asylum will continue to be Audio Asylum with all the antics that go alone with it.

What I would like to see is a merging of the two in a Headphone forum at AA.

Go place your vote in the General Asylum. Let our voices be heard! Let the manufacturers, and PROFESSIONAL reviewers know we are out there and want more shoot outs!

If nothing else....do it for the children.

 

[tanfenton]

The support could be better (37.18% favor the motion). I don't see how anyone could be against a headphone forum there. Let's hope we have enough clout to reverse those standings.

NGF

 

[markl]

Sorry, but I voted "No".

Quote:

I am not trying to draw readers away from Head-fi;

It *will* draw folks away from here. It will split up the sources of information, diluting the value of Head-Fi, and make it much harder for everyone interested in headphones to find consolidated info. People looking into headphones would likely land at the asylum first because it is more widely known. Once there, they would tossed into that miserable asylum soup of scoundrels and shills.

Also, I HATE the way audio asylum is set up. Their forum software sucks and requires endless clicking back and forth, and it doesn't have one 100th of the "goodies" and features that Head-Fi has. Here we have a number of headphone-related forums for each necessary part of a headphone system; in your proposed audio asylum forum, there's just one spot for all manner of inquiries and comments.

Quote:

What we need are more amp companies designing headphones amps. We have a nice collection of headphones,

I would say there is a huge glut of amps on the market. Every week, a brand new one is discovered and there's a new thread about it here. What we do need are more hi-end headphones. We have dozens and dozens of amp makers but fewer than 10 hi-end headphone makers (Grado, Beyer, Sony, Senn, AKG, Audio-Technica, Ultrasone, who did I forget?). Due to the difficulty of producing a new line of headphones (a guy in his basement can't build them like an amp maker can) I doubt a new forum on audioasylum will encourage new headphone companies to spring up out of nowhere.

Quote:

I personally know many at AA who feel that us Headphone enthusiasts are nutjobs who simply can't afford speakers.

Not that we can't afford speakers, just don't have a place to play them loud. Oh... and we ARE nutjobs!

Quote:

What I would like to see is a merging of the two in a Headphone forum at AA.

So, you *are* proposing the end of Head-Fi? You want Jude to dismantle this forum and hand our posts and hard work over to audio asylum? Or, do you want Head-Fi to die of benign neglect as the center of headphone gravity shifts to the crappy new audio asylum forum?

No thanks. Count me out.

markl

 

[Zanth]

*Sigh*

I am NOT proposing that Head-fi rolls over and dies....

AA has an entirely different reader base. Here at Head-fi, we have a rather young audience (perhaps due to the economics of said audio components). What would be good is a flow BETWEEN sites. I am sorry, but the RELATIVE number of headphone amps to speaker amps is VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY low. Did I say VERY ? I meant VERY.

AA is undeniably THE audio forum. Whether one likes their software or not is really not at the heart of the issue. What is the issue is getting more exposure. Headphones need more exposure. By drawing more attention to headphones in GENERAL, but specifically at AA where editors of the major magazines hang out, where engineers of major manufacturers hang out, when the majority of audiophiles hang out, we can hope to get a new flow of devices coming our way. Major companies like Sony have reps that frequent the sites researching. You think that your precious R10s are directed at the teens? Nope...they are directed at Audiophiles and AA has the most exposure. By providing a headphone forum there, we increase our exposure world wide. Head-fi will be head-fi and won't change, what will change is new blood coming in here, maybe reviewers, maybe reps, maybe engineers. All in all it can only be a good thing.

To quote an intelligent fellow:

"If the whole market grows, the niche benefits as well."

I believe this is Tyll's philosophy as well.

If you don't want in then fine, but then you already have your limited R10s. For the many who want R10 sound in something that costs 1/10 the price...exposure will be the single factor that drives this to our ears.

 

[The Quality Guru]

At first I thought that Zanth's idea was brilliant . . . because if we could have more amp makers that would great; although if it detracts from the crowd and attention Head-Fi gets, then I wouldn't be hasty to favor the motion. How about we simply have a few "scouts" hanging around AA for people who need a helping hand with choosing headphones? Or we could have "converters" who use their sly manipulative powers to find the "inner headphone user" inside everyone? Then maybe AA would be obsolete? Or not . . . But still, a very good idea- it's too bad that it has a probable chance of stunting the growth of Head-Fi considering new members would be likely to find the AA headphone section first and staying there because of its reputation and convenience.

And I agree with Markl in that we need more high-end cans (although Zanth is right about needing more amps, too); some of us who don't love the HD600 (though I do like it) and cannot afford the R10 need to have more high end cans. Well, there is that new Sennheiser can that is soon to come out . . . and though it may be welcomed with open arms, we'll all hope that it isn't inferior like it's brother the HD-590 turned out to be at its time of debut . .

 

[Zanth]

With more amps....the cans will follow...

 

[Zanth]

"when a market grows....the competition enters"

We can either take control of that growth or let someone else take it entirely.

A niche site like Headwize was rocking...but it split correct? Technical problems left people hungry. Head-fi sprung up. I am sorry but Head-fi will not be the ONLY headphone forum or one of two for long...

There are probably more out there now. Why not get one going on in the most popular site rather than having it at Yahoo or Amazon or Lycos or whatever.

By voting AA you vote for the control of the growth in the way we want it to grow and in the environments we dictate for now.

Since the power is at AA....it is in my mind the logical place to pursue.

New headphones and amps will be created AS WELL AS high quality headphone outs on components...because THERE WILL BE AN OBSERVABLE DEMAND.

 

[pigmode]

Quote:

Originally posted by markl Also, I HATE the way audio asylum is set up. Their forum software sucks and requires endless clicking back and forth, and it doesn't have one 100th of the "goodies" and features that Head-Fi has. markl

Yeah its not the most refined format, but AA is one of the greatest audio resources available, as their archives are absolutely huge. That said, Head-Fi will always be the place for in-depth knowledge concerning headphones.

As far as the marketing aspects are concerned--why do we need more products? I could care less about marketing.

 

[markl]

Quote:

AA has an entirely different reader base. Here at Head-fi, we have a rather young audience (perhaps due to the economics of said audio components).

Exactly. So we attract only the young over at the new headphone forum at aa. You're not going to convince joe megabucks with his 1000 watt Levinson monoblocks and Wilson Grand Slamms that the Senn HD600 and Jan Meier amp is superior.... even if it was.

Quote:

I'm sorry...when I reach $10, 000 in a headphone setup, including multiple cans, amps, cables etc....I believe the extreme has been reached and my choice is headphones...NOT speakers.

Any $10,000 speaker/megawatt amp combo will trounce any $10K worth of headphones/amp system. This holds true for my beloved R10s as well. In fact, my $2500 main speakers (PSB Straus Goldi's) are better in most every way to my R10s. The "snobs" over at the asylum would be completely justified in insisting that speakers are better than phones and they will not participate in the headphone site unless they needed a pair for late night listening.

Quote:

By drawing more attention to headphones in GENERAL, but specifically at AA where editors of the major magazines hang out, where engineers of major manufacturers hang out, when the majority of audiophiles hang out, we can hope to get a new flow of devices coming our way.

Instead of voting for a new forum and wrecking Head-Fi, why doesn't some intrepid Head-Fier simply create a list of e-mails of all the editors of the major audio rags and then ask the Head-Fi community to innundate them with links to the site to show off our community? We could even demand a monthly headphone column in each mag. How bout it?

Quote:

Major companies like Sony have reps that frequent the sites researching. You think that your precious R10s are directed at the teens? Nope...they are directed at Audiophiles and AA has the most exposure.

You can't buy the R10s anymore. Outside of a few Orpheii laying around and the Stax system, there are no audiophile grade headphones for them to buy that will come close to their speaker systems (I don't want to get into the argument of whether the HD600 are hi-end or not-- they aren't and audiophiles will not be convinced that a $250 hunk of plastic and velour are).

Quote:

To quote an intelligent fellow:"If the whole market grows, the niche benefits as well." I believe this is Tyll's philosophy as well.

Tyll pays good money to keep our beloved Head-Fi up and running. His ad revenue helps give us our home. I wonder how enthused he would be to keep up his support for this forum if eyeballs shifted to audioasylum?

I really think Tyll should weigh in here.

markl

 

[tanfenton]

Quote:

Originally posted by markl It *will* draw folks away from here. It will split up the sources of information, diluting the value of Head-Fi, and make it much harder for everyone interested in headphones to find consolidated info.

Why would that bother you? Headwize remains an important part of what we do here. There's no reason to think another forum would make this one any less of a cornerstone. People wouldn't have to align themselves with any one site, though they could if they so chose. Participate in all of them! This is about the free exchange of ideas, and another venue for that collaboration can only be a good thing.

Quote:

Originally posted by markl Also, I HATE the way audio asylum is set up. Their forum software sucks and requires endless clicking back and forth, and it doesn't have one 100th of the "goodies" and features that Head-Fi has. Here we have a number of headphone-related forums for each necessary part of a headphone system; in your proposed audio asylum forum, there's just one spot for all manner of inquiries and comments.

Then don't visit. I, for one, find the vBulletin software bloated and needlessly frilly. That doesn't keep me from enjoying Head-Fi each and every day.

Quote:

Originally posted by markl So, you *are* proposing the end of Head-Fi? You want Jude to dismantle this forum and hand our posts and hard work over to audio asylum? Or, do you want Head-Fi to die of benign neglect as the center of headphone gravity shifts to the crappy new audio asylum forum?

I didn't read that into Zanth's post at all. There are two headphone forums online; a third wouldn't hurt. Look at how many forums operate successfully among dozens of others just like them, and, despite such overlap, still manage to retain their value. If Audio Asylum is, as you say, crappy, why would it leave Head-Fi down and out?

NGF

 

[Zanth]

Hmmm I believe Wilson Grand Slamms are owned by a certain Kevin Gilmore who also loves his Stax and DIY amp immensely.

Why does he feel the need to listen to such wonderful headphones when he has some of the best speakers in the world?

The problem with the assertion that speakers are better in every or nearly every respect to headphones is entirely subjective and perpetuates the snobby nature of speaker lovers vs. headphone lovers.

You miss the point markl. The reason younger folks come here is because of the seemingly universal impression that speakers are better that they are more expensive and that poor students shoudl "settle" with headphones.

That mentality BETRAYS what we are doing here at Head-fi and Headwize.

We are trying to educate the world about headphones and proclaim they ARE as good or better than speakers in every respect save soundstage and visceral bass (which are subjective preferences and necessities for some).

A bunch of emails from Head-fiers will do nothing compared to having a headphone forum at AA where these editors ALREADY hang out.

We will not see an exodus from Head-fi, we will see an influx of new blood from AA.

This is capitalism at its best. We the consumers are trying to gain leverage. I want more variety with headphones, amps, etc...

I want more reviews, more shoot-outs. I want more of it all. Not because I can't do the speaker thing...but because I LOVE headphones. More than speakers. If I wanted to, I could sell my headphones, go buy myself a nice EAR 834L, some Pass Labs X600s and a pair of Totem Winds and be in heaven right now. But sadly I would be in say the 7th or eigth level of heaven...slowly climbing up the ladder to where I am at with headphones.

The guys at AA don't see that? You know why? Cause they are IGNORANT to what headphones can really do.

We are to teach them if we want more out of the industry. We are being given the chance to be heard and I am not going to pass that chance up. It is not like I went over there and faught for this. It is BEING OFFERED to us...and that offer should not be laid to rest.

 

[MacDEF]

I'm with markl; I voted "no." If we want to "merge" the two or get some interaction, IMO, we should encourage some sort of link/partnership, rather than starting yet another headphone forum. It seems silly (to me) to try to "legitimize" headphones by starting a forum on AA, when we already have such a huge presence here.

With respect to the argument that "Head-Fi and HeadWize can coexist, why can't another one" -- the truth is that traffic on HeadWize has plummeted. It's really only the DIY forum that still has substantial activity. Plus you have to remember that interest in headphones isn't something that is increasing at a huge rate. I personally I don't think that opening a headphone forum on AA is going to really increase interest in headphones. If there are AA people who aren't already here, the link idea above is a better solution, IMO.

 

[markl]

Quote:

We are being given the chance to be heard and I am not going to pass that chance up. It is not like I went over there and faught for this. It is BEING OFFERED to us...and that offer should not be laid to rest.

Zanth, if I'm coming across a little strong here it's because I think that the proposed audio asylum headphone forum would have a huge impact on our little hobby, and not entirely for the better. We have the ability here to mobilize a lot of headphone geeks here to do something that may ultimately not be in their best interest. We should think and discuss before we vote, do you agree with that? Please hear me out.

Quote:

Why would that bother you? Headwize remains an important part of what we do here.

Have you been to Headwize lately? Have you seen the tumbleweeds blowing through that unfortunate ghost town? There's no room for two headphone geek sites *at this time* let alone three. As soon as the superior Head-Fi went up, Headwize died as the most active and knowledgeable members of the community shifted here.

Quote:

Then don't visit. I, for one, find the vBulletin software bloated and needlessly frilly. That doesn't keep me from enjoying Head-Fi each and every day.

Actually, suck-ass software is the major reason I *don't* visit aa that much. It's only when I need some specific info that I go there, use the crappy search engine once, wade through the utterly irrelevant answers, get frustrated, and leave. I bet their community there would be twice as large if aa was easier to use and laid out like Head-Fi. As it is, its too much work to try to hang out there.

Quote:

There are two headphone forums online; a third wouldn't hurt. Look at how many forums operate successfully among dozens of others just like them, and, despite such overlap, still manage to retain their value. If Audio Asylum is, as you say, crappy, why would it leave Head-Fi down and out?

Creation of an aa forum would dilute the pool of participants both here and at the new site. There just aren't that many of us to go around. With fewer and fewer active members on each site, what happens? The community dies. What makes Head-Fi so great is that you and I can have this conversation in real time, not have to wait 2 days to see if anyone has answered your post.

Quote:

Hmmm I believe Wilson Grand Slamms are owned by a certain Kevin Gilmore who also loves his Stax and DIY amp immensely.

Exactly-- his custom built no holds barred, not commercially available amp which he has great pride in designing and building coloring his view of how it compares to the Grand Slamms.

Quote:

The problem with the assertion that speakers are better in every or nearly every respect to headphones is entirely subjective and perpetuates the snobby nature of speaker lovers vs. headphone lovers.

Yes, it is totally subjective, but we could estimate conservatively that two thirds of people A/B-ing a $10K speaker system vs. a $10K headphone system would prefer the speakers. Their preference would be made totally subjectively, yes.

Now we're getting off topic though.

Quote:

We are trying to educate the world about headphones and proclaim they ARE as good or better than speakers in every respect save soundstage and visceral bass (which are subjective preferences and necessities for some).

Really? Is that one of the terms of membership here? I should have read the fine print before I clicked "I Agree".

That's not my "mission" anyway.

Quote:

want more reviews, more shoot-outs. I want more of it all. Not because I can't do the speaker thing...but because I LOVE headphones.

I say again, that at this point in our hobby's development, the best way to achieve this is to stick with Head-Fi. Headphones are an audio backwater at the present moment. Diluting the information across multiple web-sites and making people hunt and search all over creation does not serve the hobby well, IMHO.

Once we hit "critical mass" some time in the future, it would make more sense to add a new forum at aa. Now is not that time.

markl

 

[eric343]

As much as I usually disagree with Markl, I'm going to have to side with him and MacDEF. If you look at it, since Head-Fi, the only HeadWize forum that's really still alive is the DIY forum, and that's because the DIY forum here doesn't get much traffic. And I hate AA's software too.

 

[Zanth]

MacDef said: Quote:

With respect to the argument that "Head-Fi and HeadWize can coexist, why can't another one" -- the truth is that traffic on HeadWize has plummeted. It's really only the DIY forum that still has substantial activity. Plus you have to remember that interest in headphones isn't something that is increasing at a huge rate.

Okay, well, Cmoy was having some serious hardware problems. Actually this was only remedied to a fully usable extent, over the last month or so. If it were not for Jude (a big thank you for this btw), we would have been without a headphone forum. Postings would have died down, maybe someone else would have started it up...whatever the case, Jude took the reigns. The ONLY reason Headwize died down was instability of the servers. If the system had been stable, and Chu had accepted donations, we would probably not have a Head-fi, but the offer from AA would still stand.

Now the second point is actually horribly false. Right now I am in too much of a rush to find stats, but hi-fi has decreased, by that I mean 2-channel stereo. What has increased dramatically is Home Theatre. What HAS increased and keeps increasing at near exponential rates is portable audio and headphones to match. If you HONESTLY think the headphone market has not taken off in the past 5 years you are blind. With cds, cdrs, cdrws, mds, and mp3s, the necessity for headphones has grown, moreover, headphones are "en vogue" right now. If the majority of them suck, that is the result of ignorance on the part of the consumer vs. the manufactured products. Koss 35s as we all know are giant killers and are cheap. They smoke nearly every phone that can be driven adequately by a pcdp et al. They are discontinued...the vast majority of the public is clueless about them. There IS a market for good sound if more people understood. This point if fairly moot in relation to having a dedicated headphone forum at AA. However, education is the key.

Markl, I am sorry that you are not here to help educate. Why do you bother posting your opinions then? Are you a troll? A thread crapper? Or do you want your opinions heard, and hopefully someone will follow suit and discover what you interpret to be the grandiose headphone experience ever.

Quote:

We have the ability here to mobilize a lot of headphone geeks here to do something that may ultimately not be in their best interest.

The fact that you use the term geek indicates that this is some sort of anti-social and shameful underground hobby that shoudl not get out, a la comic book collecting, hacking code, and role playing. You sound an awful lot like a bunch of lead-headed jocks that I went to highschool with. I am not saying you are one; but, you are coming across like that to me. This is a hobby that I would like EVERYONE to experience. I want my wife, my mom, my best friends to all love headphones and strive to appreciate and ultimately experience what music can sound like. I can't say they will enjoy music more or less than they do now...but given my experiences and the experiences of most on this board, itis evident that they won't dislike music more. So we can lend a helping hand.

I won't deal with your replies to tanfenton, he can do that himself.


Quote:

Creation of an aa forum would dilute the pool of participants both here and at the new site. There just aren't that many of us to go around. With fewer and fewer active members on each site, what happens? The community dies. What makes Head-Fi so great is that you and I can have this conversation in real time, not have to wait 2 days to see if anyone has answered your post.

This I will reply to. Um....are you only ever posting to this forum? I post to at least 30 different ones online. I would post to both aa and head-fi, as I do now. The reason I don't post to AA more is because I am not as interested in the topics of conversation. I think the re will not be a dilution but rather we will increase the pool. We seem to disagree objectively here. So we will have to agree to disagree and drop it. Only experience would prove who is right. You sadly chose to not let fate determine the outcome. Your choice. Your right.


Quote:

Exactly-- his custom built no holds barred, not commercially available amp which he has great pride in designing and building coloring his view of how it compares to the Grand Slamms.

WOW! I didn't know you were secretly Kevin in disguise. I think speaking for him is extremely immature and obviously ignorant. Secondly...you use the term "colouring" never hearing either system right? Hmmmm....so what we really have here is you being a speaker snob. I just have nothing to say here. IF you want to believe that speakers are inherenetly better then headphones that is your right...but that is not an objective truth. I don't care if 2/3 of the world believes it...they BELIEVE it to be true but it is not objectively so...1/3 don't think so...

Jude who can afford a speaker setup, Hirsch who can as well, Nik, Jatinder, Kelly, myself.....we all can buy an amazing speaker setup, but we choose to listen to headphones. Hirsch and kelly have good-decent ones...but ask them, they listen to headphones more. Nik doesn't want headphones. Why? Because he BELIEVES them to be better. Remember, he didn't come to this conclusion after owning the R10 and the Nik super-overthetop-10R-uber-godly amp...
no.....no he came to this conclusion on his own, through listening to many setups. This is the type of experience I would like spread on AA. If there is a guy out there with what could retail to be a $50 000 setup (his amp would retail for about $15000, he has the Linn Sondek $20 000, his cables are dumb in price and his R10s retail for $4000), he could spend what he wants on speakers but he doesn't want to.

Please lets let Kevin tell us why he loves his Stax as much as he does..

Quote:

Headphones are an audio backwater at the present moment. Diluting the information across multiple web-sites and making people hunt and search all over creation does not serve the hobby well, IMHO.

They will remain backwater if we don't get the word out there....placing a headphone forum on the most read audiophile website is an obvious way to project us out of the swamp. We won't dilute the information, we will simply have double the information. Perhaps we will learn a bunch as well. We can't be the holders of the headphones and keep it secret....placing a link is not going to get as much exposure as an entirely dedicated forum.

Quote:

Once we hit "critical mass" some time in the future, it would make more sense to add a new forum at aa. Now is not that time.

You assume we will hit critical mass by remaining the same....this is not true. You also assume we will have a chance in the future to add a headphone forum at aa. We have the chance now, who says we will have that same opportunity in the future? Again...assumptions. We have the chance NOW...lets take it.