[manpowre]

   
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but is that not the same as plugging it into a 1/4inch socket on the front of the amp?

The balanced out has more power than the jackplug.

 

[Badas]

The balanced out has more power than the jackplug.

Yes. That's because it has four amps running. That adapter can't handle that so it will have a wire bridge. Essential turning it back to two signals. So no benifit.

That adapter would produce essentially the same thing as the single end output. No advantage using balanced output.

 

[sanjeewasam]

Yes. That's because it has four amps running. That adapter can't handle that so it will have a wire bridge. Essential turning it back to two signals. So no benifit.

That adapter would produce essentially the same thing as the single end output. No advantage using balanced output.

 
[color=windowtext]ab_ba is claiming that he is hearing a difference with that adapter. That means his mind is tricking him to believe that it is better!![/color]
I have been using HD800 single and also via balanced cable with V281. The difference for me is not what I was believed to expect. Balanced mode does have more power but sonic improvements are subtle

 

[ab_ba]

Hey folks, I am fully prepared to be wrong on this, but I want to dwell on it a bit longer. First of all, it wasn't a blind test. It's certainly possible I was a little too impressed with my "clever" solution, and heard what I wanted to hear. Also, I didn't perfectly volume-match - I just did it by ear.
 
However, it's pretty clear the topologies are different. For the single-ended jacks, you've got two amplifiers working (one for each channel) and the return is ground. For balanced, all four amps are driving the signal. In this case, I'm tying together the right and left the negative-polarity signals, and not just passive returns to ground. 
 
I hope someone from Violectric catches this post, and can comment. The topologies seem to me to be different, but who knows, they might tell me what I've done is sonically inferior to even the single-out, let alone the balanced-out.
 
In any event, I'll give a closer listen later tonight, volume-match with an SPL meter, and see if I can talk myself out of hearing a difference...
 
By the way, Badas, that is a teriffic mancave. Very cool!

 

[zhgutov]

  However, it's pretty clear the topologies are different. For the single-ended jacks, you've got two amplifiers working (one for each channel) and the return is ground. For balanced, all four amps are driving the signal. In this case, I'm tying together the right and left the negative-polarity signals, and not just passive returns to ground. 

 
You can use TRS outputs to get balanced signal for your headphones.
Just by changing BAL-STEREO jumpers (see manual).
This jumpers change channel (pins) mapping only (Fried Reim confirms this).
So, this outputs are the same in theory.

 

[ab_ba]

Cool. Thanks zhgutov and all. That's a cool feature I was unaware of.
 
I'll continue to learn, and in the meatime, I've learned my lesson here: listen, then listen again, before you post. 
 
(I edited my original post to note the ensuing information.)

 

[zhgutov]

  I've learned my lesson here: listen, then listen again, before you post.

 
It is very important to match the volume level, it is too easy to make wrong conclusions because of "stepped" volume control.

 

[fdg]

@ ab-ba
 
It is really no good idea to operate the balanced output with an unbalanced to TRS adaptor.

See what happens:
Balanced means that there are 4 independent amps for 4 relatively independent signals,
these are:
- left in phase
- left out of phase
- right in phase
- right out of phase

With such balanced to unbalanced adaptor you are shorting the left and right out of phase signals
and both amps are working against each other.
Distortions will follow, massive heat problems and more crosstalk.
Also there will be no more power as the current from the out-of-phase amps is instantly transferred into heat !
There are dedicated sockets on the amp to connect unbalanced headphones !

Think of a 4-track road which is sudenly reduced to 3 tracks without any signalisation.
Guess what´s the result ??

So, if you want to have a damaged amp with no warranty on it - proceed !!

Best regards
 
Fried

 

[Badas]

^

I think that settles that.

Freid, do we have to be careful of any HP wiring? In and out of phase?

Is there a test that everything is okay?

 

[manpowre]

  @ ab-ba
 
It is really no good idea to operate the balanced output with an unbalanced to TRS adaptor.

See what happens:
Balanced means that there are 4 independent amps for 4 relatively independent signals,
these are:
- left in phase
- left out of phase
- right in phase
- right out of phase

With such balanced to unbalanced adaptor you are shorting the left and right out of phase signals
and both amps are working against each other.
Distortions will follow, massive heat problems and more crosstalk.
Also there will be no more power as the current from the out-of-phase amps is instantly transferred into heat !
There are dedicated sockets on the amp to connect unbalanced headphones !

Think of a 4-track road which is sudenly reduced to 3 tracks without any signalisation.
Guess what´s the result ??

So, if you want to have a damaged amp with no warranty on it - proceed !!

Best regards
 
Fried

Excellent read that explains it well ! love how this thread picked up we have to tolerate that some people doesnt have all electric knowledge, and we seek to get more. thanks FDG for this explanation.

 

[zhgutov]

  With such balanced to unbalanced adaptor you are shorting the left and right out of phase signals
and both amps are working against each other.

 
Wow! Looks like I missed the way in which the pins are connected inside this connector.
 
Cannot find the description for them, but it looks like this is at least the second time in this thread when someone points to such a solution in production.
Is there any real (other) application of 4-pin XLR with two pins connected together? Why anyone would even make such wires?

 

[ab_ba]

  @ ab-ba
 
It is really no good idea to operate the balanced output with an unbalanced to TRS adaptor.

With such balanced to unbalanced adaptor you are shorting the left and right out of phase signals
and both amps are working against each other.

So, if you want to have a damaged amp with no warranty on it - proceed !!

Best regards
 
Fried

Thanks Fried. That makes perfect sense (of course). The adapter has been tossed in my bin of bad ideas.
 
And, for the low price of $15 and a little public embarassment, I've learned firsthand the principles of audio comparisons:
(1) Volume-match with an SPL and a test tone before you try to compare anything. Louder things sound better.
(2) Test blind. Have somebody else switch the cables around, and see if you can guess it right better than 50/50.
(3) Make the switches quickly! Audio memory lasts only a few seconds.
(4) And, of course, talk to your manufacturer before you do anything crazy.
 
One last thing, so it's clear - this nutty idea was all mine. The vendor only built a cable as I requested. It's not like there's somebody out there marketing these things.

 

[jelt2359]

  @ ab-ba
 
It is really no good idea to operate the balanced output with an unbalanced to TRS adaptor.

See what happens:
Balanced means that there are 4 independent amps for 4 relatively independent signals,
these are:
- left in phase
- left out of phase
- right in phase
- right out of phase

With such balanced to unbalanced adaptor you are shorting the left and right out of phase signals
and both amps are working against each other.
Distortions will follow, massive heat problems and more crosstalk.
Also there will be no more power as the current from the out-of-phase amps is instantly transferred into heat !
There are dedicated sockets on the amp to connect unbalanced headphones !

Think of a 4-track road which is sudenly reduced to 3 tracks without any signalisation.
Guess what´s the result ??

So, if you want to have a damaged amp with no warranty on it - proceed !!

Best regards
 
Fried

Will this do any damage to the headphones? Or is it mainly bad for the amp?

 

[fdg]

@ Badas

According to some AES (Audio Engineering Society) investigations there is only a very small minority
about 0,1 % of the population who can tell apart an in-phase signal from an out-of-phase signal.
And this has nothing to do with training or so, it´s got something to do with the brain.
I personally can not - and in 30 years of pro-audio experience I only met two guys who could !

Of course the polarity on both earpieces must be the same.
An in-phase connected earpiece for one channel and an out-of-phase connected earpiece for the other channel is instantly perceived.

And again the pin-out of the 4-pin XLR, not only on our amps but the world wide de-facto standard:
Pin 1 = left channel, in-phase
Pin 2 = left channel, out-of-phase
Pin 3 = right channel, in-phase
Pin 4 = right channel, out-of-phase

If there is any shielding on the cable ( which is absolutely not necessary for headphones !!! )
this should be cut or connected to the case of the connector and must not be connected to any of the four pins.
The reason for the shielding is that there is lots of shielded "microphone" cable in the market 
which is taken by the headphone manufacturers - I guess out of costs reasons
 
Cheers, Fried 

 

[fdg]

@jelt2359
 
Well, basically it´s bad for the amp.
But when the amp fails and produces large amounts of DC during passing away
there might be some colateral damage !