Violectric HPA V281 - Vorsprung durch Balanced (September 2023 Update: Limited Reissue Edition up for preorder!)
Oct 6, 2017 at 2:17 PM Post #3,136 of 5,909
This thread really exploded recently, nice to see users going very indepth, also about their personal preferences. Will update this thread in the next few days and link impressions and important info onto the main page.
 
Oct 6, 2017 at 3:55 PM Post #3,138 of 5,909
This thread really exploded recently, nice to see users going very indepth, also about their personal preferences. Will update this thread in the next few days and link impressions and important info onto the main page.

We are a passionate bunch of oddballs that have spent a lot of time with this equipment. An updated OP would be very welcome indeed.
 
Oct 6, 2017 at 3:55 PM Post #3,139 of 5,909
It's a shame I don't have any higher end amps on me. I was listening to the Sennheiser HDVD 820 today, and the Violectric it better, but the Sennheiser is more flexible.

Violectric doesn't really colour the sound, it has a black background and very transparent sound yet still sounds superbly natural.

The Sennheiser is slightly smoother sounding and not quite as transparent.

I have compared the V281 extensively over the months vs:
  • Liquid Carbon v2.0
  • Audio GD SA-31SE
  • Lake People G109-A
  • M Stage HPA-1
  • Burson Soloist (the big amp/preamp model with 4W/Ch), since sold
It has easily the most flexible & configurable I/O + gain features I've ever seen. And the very granular gain adjustments (both for headphones & line out) became extremely useful, given that unity gain was far too much gain for my system in every way.

I won't run down the whole laundry list of comparisions & respective strengthsf/weakness. Suffice to say the V281 really has no weaknesses. I'm extremely impressed w/it in just about every way. I'm having some annoyance issues w/the stepped pot that will fairly soon prompt to sent it to Violectric U.S. for repair or replacement. It's an essential audio tool--I can't be without it, even though I have other amps.

Also, based on some recent comments in this thread, I will soon experiment w/running balanced line outputs direct to my powered monitors (ZenPro modded Yamaha HS7s) + the RCA line outs to my SVS SB-1000 sub. The manual subtly discourages concurrent use of these outputs, but apparently some people do that anyway, w/good results.
 
Oct 6, 2017 at 4:23 PM Post #3,140 of 5,909
Also, based on some recent comments in this thread, I will soon experiment w/running balanced line outputs direct to my powered monitors (ZenPro modded Yamaha HS7s) + the RCA line outs to my SVS SB-1000 sub. The manual subtly discourages concurrent use of these outputs, but apparently some people do that anyway, w/good results.
I am interested in your results and eagerly anticipate the write-up.
 
Oct 9, 2017 at 1:02 PM Post #3,141 of 5,909
Oct 9, 2017 at 1:36 PM Post #3,142 of 5,909
I ended up separating out my 2 channel from my headphone listening as my room was really the issue. Bay windows are never good. To me, "Fixed-Out/Pre-fader path" sounded the best but maybe if I had the upgraded volume pot, things would have been different. When I hooked up my dac to my integrated amp and used the tape outs to the V281, the loss in quality was noticeable when listening to headphones on the V281.

I've been experimenting with Sony's NW-WM1A walkman to my V281. Unbalanced over a decent Wireworld Eclipse 3.5mm to the V281s RCA jacks has been really good. Couldn't stop listening to it for 3+hours! Not quite as organic as the 2Qute but more resolution. Read in a few reviews that the balanced output on the NW-WM1A is way better. Have a balanced Black Dragon 4.4mm Pentaconn to dual XLR cable on the way for the V281. Only issue with the NW-WM1A is you can't use it as a USB DAC. Nuts. Have to transfer all my music to the unit but as least it's battery powered and I don't have to worry about buying another media server/expensive USB cable/power supplies. I already bought a Black Dragon 4.4mm Pentaconn balanced cable to 4pin XLRs adapter. With this adapter, the HD800S sound really nice directly out of the NW-WM1A but running unbalanced to the V281 is quite a bit better. Can't wait to run balanced. NW-WM1A only does native DSD over the balanced output. Did you know that Sony is using FPGA DACs in their NW-WM1A DAP and Sony TA-ZH1ES headphone amp (field-programmable gate array). Chord, you better watch out :) Lake People product request: +1 for a FPGA DAC card and/or stand alone DAC with DSD/MQA capabilities.
 
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Oct 10, 2017 at 8:40 AM Post #3,143 of 5,909
About line in- and outputs, levels, impedances and cables between.

The past days this thread experienced a lively discussion amongst other things about the line outputs of HPA V281, their quality and if they are about to alter the sound – and if yes to the better or to the worse.
My opinion is that the line outputs from V220 / V281 are altering the sound by at least a very very small fraction (if any) because we worked hard to amend the signals as little as possible.

The key to unaltered sound is to take care about the impedances.
The output impedance of every electronic output shall be kept as low as possible, about 30 ohms or less. The input impedance of the following input shall be reasonably high, about 5 kOhm or more.
By doing so, all involved components – output circuitry, cable, input circuitry - will act as transparent as possible.
Also the overall gain should be as low as possible, the output level should be reasonable and preferably match the following stage and of course the frequency range should be sufficiently wide.
A low output impedance can only be made electronically with some active circuitry, mostly an op-amp or a discrete circuitry similar to an op-amp.
Any resistor in the output line will increase the output impedance and so make the output signal and the cable to the following unit sensitive for frequency alterations, EMC problems and other issues.

Remember: The higher the output impedance the higher the influence of the cable.
Don’t waste money for “sophisticated” cables but invest in low impedance outputs.

As a result from the above a passive attenuator will not work (never !!), because its output is variable and high impedance state.
Yes, some may claim that it sounds better - but its only sounding different !

Also, splitting cables should be avoided (driving two inputs from one output) as the generated impedance mismatches cannot be controlled.

To deal with high levels, the analog circuitry needs an appropriate operating voltage:
For about +21 dBu (approx. 9 Veff) analog level a supply voltage of +/- 15 volt is needed
For about +23 dBu (approx. 11 Veff) analog level a supply voltage of +/- 18 volts is needed
For about +24 dBu (approx. 12 Veff) analog level a supply voltage of +/- 20 V is needed.
Unfortunately many of the “sophisticated” op-amps and transistorized op-amp supplements are only suited for +/- 15 V. Also, the distortions will rise noticeably the closer the signal comes to the limits defined by the operating voltage.

Now you may ask yourself: why there are these high levels from (professional) D/A converters while my (consumer) CD player outputs about +4/+6 dBu.

An answer is the different (professional) conversion standards from digital levels to analog levels.
The US standard (SMPTE RP 155) define the digital full scale level (0 dBFs) to be translated into +24 dB analog level. The European Broadcasters (EBU R68) are translating 0 dBFs to be +18 dBu while the German Broadcasters (IRT) are converting the same digital level to be +15 dBu.

So, some equipment claiming to be made to “professional” standards will output +24 dBu analog level which may perhaps override the inputs of the subsequent (consumer) equipment or is on the edge to considerable distortion.

Some of these units/manufacturers don´t care for “consumer” needs and do nothing.
Some are adding passive attenuators to lower the level – what is the wrong measure because
it scales up the output impedance (see above).
Some are adapting the analog level in an active way, preserving the low output impedance.
Guess what we do at Lake people / Violectric.

Please note that all D/A converter chips are powered from 5 V or less single supply voltage. So the maximum output level of such chips is +8 dBu or lower.
When a D/A converter outputs +24 dBu this means that the signal is boosted by at least +16 dB inside the unit, raising probably hiss and noise - to be unnecessarily attenuated in an appropriate way to fit the following equipment …

Coming back to HPA V281 and most other lake People and Violectric gear and the treatment of the line output signals I want to make clear that we had the above problems in mind and engineered our input/output circuitry as optimal and variable as possible.
Our line outputs have very low impedances ( < 1 Ohm).
The output levels are adaptable by dip-switches or multi-turn attenuators to match the subsequent gear. This circuitry is found in front of any output circuitry.
Of course it is imaginable that a power-amp and speaker or active speaker will sound different through other devices – but if this is “better” or “worse” are personal preferences.
We do our best not to change anything !
 
Oct 10, 2017 at 7:51 PM Post #3,144 of 5,909
^

Nice post.

The more I use the V281 the more I realize it is a masterpiece.
I use Ether Flow (with elctro pads) and V281 with all switches (external and Internal) set to their lowest gains.
Volume goes to the 10-11 O'clock position. Wonderful sound.
 
Oct 10, 2017 at 7:54 PM Post #3,145 of 5,909
Thanks Fried : That is indeed a tour-de-force in well thought out explications, one which seems to break everything down about line level inputs and outputs, related questions of input/output impedance, and interconnects. There is a wealth of information in that post about these particular features that far exceeds what one can find in the manuals of the two units mentioned. Thanks, and much obliged! Yet, because of my own lack of technical expertise, I feel there are parts of the post that have gone over my head, and wish there were someone else who could explicate/translate those parts to me in simpler more layman terms.

Still, this is me expressing my appreciation, rather than being un ungrateful pain... I truly feel lucky to own a machine like the V281. Thanks again.
 
Oct 10, 2017 at 8:20 PM Post #3,146 of 5,909
About line in- and outputs, levels, impedances and cables between.

The past days this thread experienced a lively discussion amongst other things about the line outputs of HPA V281, their quality and if they are about to alter the sound – and if yes to the better or to the worse.
My opinion is that the line outputs from V220 / V281 are altering the sound by at least a very very small fraction (if any) because we worked hard to amend the signals as little as possible.

The key to unaltered sound is to take care about the impedances.
The output impedance of every electronic output shall be kept as low as possible, about 30 ohms or less. The input impedance of the following input shall be reasonably high, about 5 kOhm or more.
By doing so, all involved components – output circuitry, cable, input circuitry - will act as transparent as possible.
Also the overall gain should be as low as possible, the output level should be reasonable and preferably match the following stage and of course the frequency range should be sufficiently wide.
A low output impedance can only be made electronically with some active circuitry, mostly an op-amp or a discrete circuitry similar to an op-amp.
Any resistor in the output line will increase the output impedance and so make the output signal and the cable to the following unit sensitive for frequency alterations, EMC problems and other issues.

Remember: The higher the output impedance the higher the influence of the cable.
Don’t waste money for “sophisticated” cables but invest in low impedance outputs.

As a result from the above a passive attenuator will not work (never !!), because its output is variable and high impedance state.
Yes, some may claim that it sounds better - but its only sounding different !

Also, splitting cables should be avoided (driving two inputs from one output) as the generated impedance mismatches cannot be controlled.

To deal with high levels, the analog circuitry needs an appropriate operating voltage:
For about +21 dBu (approx. 9 Veff) analog level a supply voltage of +/- 15 volt is needed
For about +23 dBu (approx. 11 Veff) analog level a supply voltage of +/- 18 volts is needed
For about +24 dBu (approx. 12 Veff) analog level a supply voltage of +/- 20 V is needed.
Unfortunately many of the “sophisticated” op-amps and transistorized op-amp supplements are only suited for +/- 15 V. Also, the distortions will rise noticeably the closer the signal comes to the limits defined by the operating voltage.

Now you may ask yourself: why there are these high levels from (professional) D/A converters while my (consumer) CD player outputs about +4/+6 dBu.

An answer is the different (professional) conversion standards from digital levels to analog levels.
The US standard (SMPTE RP 155) define the digital full scale level (0 dBFs) to be translated into +24 dB analog level. The European Broadcasters (EBU R68) are translating 0 dBFs to be +18 dBu while the German Broadcasters (IRT) are converting the same digital level to be +15 dBu.

So, some equipment claiming to be made to “professional” standards will output +24 dBu analog level which may perhaps override the inputs of the subsequent (consumer) equipment or is on the edge to considerable distortion.

Some of these units/manufacturers don´t care for “consumer” needs and do nothing.
Some are adding passive attenuators to lower the level – what is the wrong measure because
it scales up the output impedance (see above).
Some are adapting the analog level in an active way, preserving the low output impedance.
Guess what we do at Lake people / Violectric.

Please note that all D/A converter chips are powered from 5 V or less single supply voltage. So the maximum output level of such chips is +8 dBu or lower.
When a D/A converter outputs +24 dBu this means that the signal is boosted by at least +16 dB inside the unit, raising probably hiss and noise - to be unnecessarily attenuated in an appropriate way to fit the following equipment …

Coming back to HPA V281 and most other lake People and Violectric gear and the treatment of the line output signals I want to make clear that we had the above problems in mind and engineered our input/output circuitry as optimal and variable as possible.
Our line outputs have very low impedances ( < 1 Ohm).
The output levels are adaptable by dip-switches or multi-turn attenuators to match the subsequent gear. This circuitry is found in front of any output circuitry.
Of course it is imaginable that a power-amp and speaker or active speaker will sound different through other devices – but if this is “better” or “worse” are personal preferences.
We do our best not to change anything !

Thanks for a comprehensive post! There is so much information here, that I keep reading & re-reading it.

Besides the amazing sound, the best thing about the V281 IMO is its very flexible & diverse input/output features, adjustments, etc. Also the very granular gain adjustments, separate for headphone outs vs line outs. Never saw another line level audio product with this much flexibility.

Now I have to ask you a question that has been on my mind ever since I got powered monitors w/balanced inputs (Zenpro modded Yamaha HS7s): can I use the XLR outputs simultaneously w/the RCA outputs to power the Yamahas (XLRs) and powered SVS SB-100 sub (RCAs)?

The manual suggests this may result in degraded sound; but I understand some users use these outputs simultaneously w/good results & no apparent sonic degradation.

I powered the Yamahas directly from the XLR outs one time (w/the sub not connected), and got the best sound I've heard so far w/the Yamahas. So I'd love to be able to do that 24/7, but w/the RCAs driving the sub.

No matter what your answer is, I'm a very happy V281 user!
 
Oct 10, 2017 at 11:07 PM Post #3,147 of 5,909
So, it looks like you have different sources for the different amps, right?
Can you compare this amps with the one source and outputs (for example, the same RCA out and the cable for everything)?
And with the same loudness.
If you don't have a measurement equipment to match loudness, you can make a series of comparisons with the slightly different volumes, where one of the amps achieves slightly more loudness, then another amp achieves slightly more loudness, and so on..
Sorry that these questions escaped my attention. Yes I do have different sources for the different amps. I normally use the V281 with the Schiit Yggdrasil, the Audiogd NFB1amp, with an Audiogd Reference 5.32 with the Amanero USB module installed, the Bryston 2b LP with an Emotiva DC-1, and a Cavalli Liquid Carbon with a Metrum Acoustics Hex. You're indeed right that switching and doing different Amp/DAC permutations within these four pairings might generate some different interesting results for the He-6. For example, I tried pairing the Audiogd Ref. 5.32 with the Bryston once, and the results were pretty bad, not just for the He-6, but for some of my other cans as well. I do not know whether it was caused by a mismatched input/output impedance between the two units, or by some other technical deficiency, but I was convinced after about 5 minutes that this particular pairing was a bad idea. I would really like to experiment with different pairings, but that is going to take a lot of spare time I do not have yet. I am still keeping these experiments on my to-do list for the future.t In the meantime, the V281 pairs very well with the Yggdrasil for my all other needs, including listening other cans and to live speakers, so I do not think I am missing out on much with my present set ups.
 
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Oct 11, 2017 at 5:53 AM Post #3,148 of 5,909
I am selling my unit with stepped attenuator and XMOS USB.
It's on the classifieds.

PM if interested.
 
Oct 14, 2017 at 4:24 AM Post #3,149 of 5,909
Now I have to ask you a question that has been on my mind ever since I got powered monitors w/balanced inputs (Zenpro modded Yamaha HS7s): can I use the XLR outputs simultaneously w/the RCA outputs to power the Yamahas (XLRs) and powered SVS SB-100 sub (RCAs)?

While Violectric V630, V800 and V850 offer dedicated drivers for the balanced and unbalanced outputs,
V600, V220 and V281 do not. Here the unbalanced outputs are derived (connected in parallel) from the In-Phase signals of the balanced outputs.
According to my post concerning the structure of line outputs this may lead to problems - but it must not.
The issues are not that much based on the line outputs as these are very low impedance types.
The are more caused by the input impedances of the following equipment which may interact between each other.
My recommendation: check it out and hear what´s happening.
Normally the influences a so small that they won´t be heard.
You can´t destroy anything electrical, only the sound may be affected.
Cheers, Fried
 

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