Vinyl Upgrade on a Budget?

[erikzen]

Currently I have a vinyl rig basically held together with spit and bubblegum.

Technics SL-1900 turntable
Shure M97xE cartridge
Radio Shack preamp

The turntable was being thrown out so it cost me nothing. The cartridge was around $75. The preamp cost about $20. This was a pretty minimal investment and I do get to hear some old records. Still I wonder...

I hooked this up to record vinyl to my hard drive through a Santa Cruz Turtle Beach soundcard. However, now that I have it hooked up I use it from time to time just to listen to records, either through my computer speakers (which aren't very good) or through a headphone amp such as the XP-7.

The sound is OK. Certainly it's not analog bliss and the condition of most of my records leaves something to be desired. The question is should I bother upgrading any of this with minimal funds? Someday I hope to have a real analog rig but that's way in the future.

The SL-1900 is a direct drive turntable and I'm fairly certain I'm getting a bit of rumble from it. Would I be better off with a cheap (<$300) belt driven table?

I've heard good things about the Radio Shack preamp. Not that it's going to floor anyone but that for $20 it is just as good as any preamp costing five times more (which still isn't very much). Is this true or would I benefit from a better preamp in the $100-$150 range?

Any advice is appreciated.

 

[Nak Man]

Quote:

Originally Posted by erikzen Would I be better off with a cheap (<$300) belt driven table?

Yup, imo used Thorens TD 160 / super (the one with metal inner platter) or better yet TD 125 presented audible improvement over medium class DD. Sometimes you can get SME 3009 II bundled and it gets even better.

As for phono amp, I found Adcom 555ii /565 preamp to have very good phono sound quality, really 'black' background, and worth $100-150 spending on ebay. Holman or NAD (forgot which early model) were also good (discrete, vs LT op amp based on Adcom). Plus you get decent headphone out as a bonus.

 

[drminky]

Second the thorens td160 super recommendation! I got one for <£100 and let me tell you, there aint no way you can get sound much better for that money

 

[bln]

You have a serviceable setup as it is, that Shure is supposed to be quite good. I'd first work on your record collection, pick a wet-cleaning system and clean them thoroughly. Then, when you think it's only your gear holding the sound back, and not dirty vinyl, you should upgrade. My first move then would be to buy a vintage receiver for use as a phono preamp, and not a cheap NAD/Music Hall/Creek.

 

[Nak Man]

I agree that clean vinyl is a must for acceptable listening.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bln My first move then would be to buy a vintage receiver for use as a phono preamp, and not a cheap NAD/Music Hall/Creek.

Um, may I know how you come up to this vintage receiver phono section is better than NAD/MH/Creek comment ? Have you compared or a/b ed them extensively ?

I haven't tried those 'cheap' phono pre, but ime most of vintage receiver's (and integrated's) phono section don't sound as good or as quiet as more modern op-amp based phono pre (with as simple layout as cmoy's amp), with one notable exception of Apt, but that's a preamp.

 

[memepool]

If you are suffering rumble from the Technics it could either be because there is some electrical fault or because it's not sited very well.
It's worth checking the wiring especially whether or not you are getting earth loops or whether it's earthing at all. Eg. is it plugged into the same socket as your computer? Do you have any surge protection / conditioning circuits?

Where is the deck situated? Technics decks are designed to be used on a solid surface.You need to isolate it from the floor and any souces of vibration. If you have a floor made of wooden floorboards then get a shelf and mount it on an outside wall. Also it's worth looking into isolation platforms or foculpods http://www.oregondv.com/Foculpods.htm. On the cheap if you cut tennis balls in half and put them under the feet of the deck this will isolate it further.
Also take off the lid when you use it as it will cause microphony.
Make sure you have the Arm and cartridge correctly aligned and VTA / Bias set properly.
As far as pre amps go, a decent budget amp from the 80's like the Nad Series 20, Rotel 820-830-840, Arcam Alpha or Cyrus One all have pretty good phono stages quite upto anything you will get from a budget modern stand alone box. I would avoid 70's receivers unless it's a pretty high-end one like the pioneer sx1250 and I don't think you'll pick up anything like this cheaply these days unless you get really lucky....

A longterm approach would be to upgrade the Technics by swapping out the tonearm. Not overly familiar with the SL1900 but most of the direct drives Technics made in the 1970's are well upto Thorens TD160 standards as far as the motorboard is concerned, whereas the tonearms leave lots to be desired by modern standards. Which incidentally still goes for the tonearm fitted to the SL1200 which is more or less the same as it always was. Classic SME 3009 tonearms are lovely to look at but are pretty limited unless you listen just to classical / jazz / acoustic music.
Big advances in tonearm design were made in the 1980's at all levels and there is a very good tonearm called a Rega RB250 which can be fitted to the Technics. Check out http://www.originlive.com/ in the UK who make modifications to these arms and technicas mounting boards for the SL1200 which may or may not work with your SL1900.
These upgrades don't come cheap but they will lift the performance of a humble Technics into the high-end.

 

[Nak Man]

Quote:

Originally Posted by memepool Big advances in tonearm design were made in the 1980's at all levels and there is a very good tonearm called a Rega RB250 which can be fitted to the Technics.

I agree Rega RB is the arm to get, although it would be difficult to fit RB250 on this table. For $300 you might even be able to get a used 'genuine' Planar 2 or 3 - highly recommended.

 

[erikzen]

Thanks guys. Lots of nice suggestions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bln You have a serviceable setup as it is, that Shure is supposed to be quite good. I'd first work on your record collection, pick a wet-cleaning system and clean them thoroughly.

Any recommendations on wet-cleaning systems that don't cost more than my entire setup?

Quote:

Originally Posted by memepool If you are suffering rumble from the Technics it could either be because there is some electrical fault or because it's not sited very well. It's worth checking the wiring especially whether or not you are getting earth loops or whether it's earthing at all. Eg. is it plugged into the same socket as your computer? Do you have any surge protection / conditioning circuits?

The wiring is probably as good as it's going to get without rewiring the room. I have it plugged into a separate surge protector (Tripp-Lite Isobar) from my computer.

Quote:

Where is the deck situated? Technics decks are designed to be used on a solid surface.You need to isolate it from the floor and any souces of vibration. If you have a floor made of wooden floorboards then get a shelf and mount it on an outside wall.

The placement is probably a problem. The TT is on a sturdy end table but the floor is made of wood planks. Unfortunately, building a shelf for the unit is going to prove a bit difficult because there is little space for it and I'm not much of a carpenter. There is built in shelving in the room (home office) but utilizing it means completely refiguring the way the room is set up. I'll have to think about this.

Quote:

Also it's worth looking into isolation platforms or foculpods http://www.oregondv.com/Foculpods.htm. On the cheap if you cut tennis balls in half and put them under the feet of the deck this will isolate it further.

I have wondered about isolation platforms. This seems like a very good idea.
Quote:

Also take off the lid when you use it as it will cause microphony. Make sure you have the Arm and cartridge correctly aligned and VTA / Bias set properly.

Unfortunately, the TT does not have a dust cover, but that does mean I'm not getting the microphony. I spent a bit of time correctly aligning cartridge and tone arm so hopefully, this is in order.

Quote:

As far as pre amps go, a decent budget amp from the 80's like the Nad Series 20, Rotel 820-830-840, Arcam Alpha or Cyrus One all have pretty good phono stages quite upto anything you will get from a budget modern stand alone box. I would avoid 70's receivers unless it's a pretty high-end one like the pioneer sx1250 and I don't think you'll pick up anything like this cheaply these days unless you get really lucky....

Are these really going to be better than the Radio Shack pre-amp? Many folks around here have praised the "Li'l Rat" highly.

Quote:

A longterm approach would be to upgrade the Technics by swapping out the tonearm. Not overly familiar with the SL1900 but most of the direct drives Technics made in the 1970's are well upto Thorens TD160 standards as far as the motorboard is concerned, whereas the tonearms leave lots to be desired by modern standards. Which incidentally still goes for the tonearm fitted to the SL1200 which is more or less the same as it always was. Classic SME 3009 tonearms are lovely to look at but are pretty limited unless you listen just to classical / jazz / acoustic music.

Instead of upgrading a mediocre table, would I be better off purchasing something that already sounds decent? Refurbishing an old table that I'm not all that happy with in the first place doesn't seem cost effective to me. I've never worked on turntables so I'm going to have this work done by a technician. Won't that be expensive?

What about just getting a new (or used) turntable. What about something like this:

http://www.kabusa.com/frameset.htm?index.htm

or this:

http://www.needledoctor.com/s.nl/sc....it.A/id.863/.f

Thanks again!

 

[memepool]

Hi Nak man, that link looks like an SL1200. i think the SL1900 is a more budget version? Either way the Technics will out-perform either the Rega Planar 2 or 3 if you put the RB250 on it. The Rega's have the opposite problem to the Technics, good arm with a basic plinth system. Check Origin Live, their mods for the Rega arm and Technics are excellent.

Another Technics mod is the Michel Tekno (counter) weight upgrade which also improves the stock RB250 by swapping out the dodgy counterweight with a solid hex keyed alternative which adds serious rigidy and therefore improved bass and definition accross the frequency range.

 

[erikzen]

Quote:

Originally Posted by memepool Hi Nak man, that link looks like an SL1200. i think the SL1900 is a more budget version?

You are correct.

 

[memepool]

Hi
Neither of those decks in the links are upto much and certainly are inferior to what you already have if properly set up.

"What about just getting a new (or used) turntable. What about something like this:

http://www.kabusa.com/frameset.htm?index.htm

or this:

http://www.needledoctor.com/s.nl/sc.../it.A/id.863/.f"

Your set you sounds alright, as you say apart from the floor. Turntable shelves can be bought ready made from companies like Target or Sound Organisation and do turn up on Ebay.

To get a serious hike in quality you will need to get hold of something like a Linn Lp12, Logic Tempo, Dunlop Systemdek, Roksan Xerxes, Garrard 401, Townsend Rock or a better Technics like the SP10 or SL1100 / 1200. So yes you could spend 3-4 hundred and find one 2nd hand in good condition. There are specialist dealers that will have things like the Garrard.

For something new of comparable quality to better what you have already I think you would need to spend twice as much maybe more.

 

[erikzen]

OK great. I'm not up to taking it to the next level. Too many other priorities in my life right now. So the short term game plan is:

• wet record cleaning kit
• better stability
• isolation feet
• change out tonearm

I'll keep my eyes open for a decent '80s budget amp with phone stage, as well.

 

[JefferyK]

Quote:

Originally Posted by erikzen OK great. I'm not up to taking it to the next level. Too many other priorities in my life right now. So the short term game plan is: wet record cleaning kit better stability isolation feet change out tonearm I'll keep my eyes open for a decent '80s budget amp with phone stage, as well.

You need a different phono stage. A $20 phono stage will not get the most out of any TT, I don't care how many people have raved about it on the Internet.

Replacing the tonearm on your SL-1900 will cost hundreds of dollars. Furthermore, I'm not convinced that the original tonearm is the problem.

You can get very good results from hand cleaning records, so don't feel that you have to buy a gazillion-dollar vacuum cleaner. A lint brush and a DIY cleaning solution (75/25 distilled water/isopropyl alcohol) will do wonders.

ALL TTs have rumble, and the rumble of Technics DD TTs isn't high. If you are hearing too much TT noise, you should (1) isolate the table, (2) oil the spindle bearings (you can get oil from KABUSA online, and it's cheap), and/or (3) try a different phono stage.

I think under-$500 Rega and Music Hall tables would be a lateral move. For a little bit of money---record cleaning supplies, spindle oil, a different phono stage, some sort of DIY isolation thang---I think you could get a lot more out of your setup.

Jeffery

 

[bln]

I can't recommend a wet-cleaning system from experience, but look at the Allsop Orbitrac and the Disc Doctor fluid and brushes. If I were to buy one, I'd be leaning toward the latter.

 

[memepool]

Which wet cleaning systems have you tried? I've read good reviews of the Moth, Loricraft and Nitty Gritty machines, but there are also machines from Keith Monks and VPI.
The Moth or Nitty Gritty are about half the price of the others. I am not so sure about the "lips" on the nitty gritty but the build quality looks nice.