[Braver]

Hi guys,

Completely in step with the current fashion in hifi, I'm totally bitten by the vinyl bug

Already picked up a bunch of vinyl for next to nothing, and have a Project Phonobox II coming this way, but I still need to find a turntable. Yes, I'm doing it completely backwards, but it's just that I've been postponing the hardest part. Nevertheless, I'm having buckets of fun

I've got a general idea of what to look for, but I've a hard time picking something, specially since I'm not sure how good the things are that I see online. My preferred budget is €50 which I can stretch, but I'd rather not: I'd rather put another €50 towards a cartridge and/or a new belt.

Can you guys help me out? Which one looks best to you?

Dual CS521 apparantly in good condition (no further info)

Dual 1228, with a Shure M91 MG-D

Dual 505-2, looks good on pictures, bit plasticky, and looks like it has a Ortofon element. Acording to the seller, not used much and like new.

There's also a Thorens TD160 going for a bit more, but it needs a new needle. That makes it a lot more expesive, and I'm not sure if that worth it?

So, any suggestions are very welcome, cause I'm itching to actually listen to all that vinyl

 

[ssportclay]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Braver /img/forum/go_quote.gif Hi guys, Completely in step with the current fashion in hifi, I'm totally bitten by the vinyl bug Already picked up a bunch of vinyl for next to nothing, and have a Project Phonobox II coming this way, but I still need to find a turntable. Yes, I'm doing it completely backwards, but it's just that I've been postponing the hardest part. Nevertheless, I'm having buckets of fun I've got a general idea of what to look for, but I've a hard time picking something, specially since I'm not sure how good the things are that I see online. My preferred budget is €50 which I can stretch, but I'd rather not: I'd rather put another €50 towards a cartridge and/or a new belt. Can you guys help me out? Which one looks best to you? Dual CS521 apparantly in good condition (no further info) Dual 1228, with a Shure M91 MG-D Dual 505-2, looks good on pictures, bit plasticky, and looks like it has a Ortofon element. Acording to the seller, not used much and like new. There's also a Thorens TD160 going for a bit more, but it needs a new needle. That makes it a lot more expesive, and I'm not sure if that worth it? So, any suggestions are very welcome, cause I'm itching to actually listen to all that vinyl

Condition is important.I would tend to go for the Thorens TD160 for a bit more.Any used cartridge should get a new stylus which is most of the cost of the cartridge anyway.A new Audio Technica 440MLa @ $85 from LP Gear would be the way I would go.The Thorens table is also more upgradable down the road because the tonearm can be changed and new armboards for just about any tonearm are available.

 

[Braver]

Quote:

Condition is important

It's just really hard to judge from meagre descriptions and small foto's.

The 1228 apparantly has a new needle. Would that change things? Not that I mind buying a new cart (I figure I can always take the cart to a new table if I ever buy something else), but if don't have to, it'll save me quite a lot of money I can spend on vinyl

 

[memepool]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Braver /img/forum/go_quote.gif It's just really hard to judge from meagre descriptions and small foto's. The 1228 apparantly has a new needle. Would that change things? Not that I mind buying a new cart (I figure I can always take the cart to a new table if I ever buy something else), but if don't have to, it'll save me quite a lot of money I can spend on vinyl

Generally 2nd hand needles are pretty worthless unless it NOS. Since a needle of unknown quantity can do irreparable damage to you records it's generally always better to buy a new one.

The Thorens is by far the best deck of those you mentioned head and shoulders above the others and worth spending a few dollars more for, mainly because it offers a better future upgrade path. They are getting expensive these days though as more people rediscover the joys of vinyl.

The Dual's are all very good too for the money but not quite in the same league really. The 505-2 does generally have a plastic plinth but otherwise it's an excellent deck, THE budget deck of the 1980s the same way the Pro-Ject Debut is today and there's not a lot in it in terms of sq.

Otherwise here is a list I made of other worthy decks to look out for in the bargain basement pricerange. http://www.head-fi.org/forums/showthread.php?t=230443

 

[Braver]

Cool, thanks for the info. I decided to go for either the 505-2 or the 1228, the Thorens was just getting a bit too expensive. Perhaps even both Duals and then decide which one I like best

Last question for now (I've read so many threads already, I just got lost): what cartridge would you recommend as a replacement? Preferably low budget (I guess you already got that): I'm looking at Grado Green, Audio Technica AT-95e, Audio Technica AT-110e, Ortofon OM-10 Super or Shure M-92E. At least, that's what I could find around here.

 

[memepool]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Braver /img/forum/go_quote.gif Last question for now (I've read so many threads already, I just got lost): what cartridge would you recommend as a replacement? Preferably low budget (I guess you already got that): I'm looking at Grado Green, Audio Technica AT-95e, Audio Technica AT-110e, Ortofon OM-10 Super or Shure M-92E. At least, that's what I could find around here.

All those carts are pretty good. The Grado and Shure are rich and warm sounding with a rolled off top end, the Ortofon is smooth and quite neutral and the AT's are a bit more dynamic and lively sounding.

The 505-2 has an Ultra Low Mass tonearm so the OM-10 is the traditional partner, but the Audio Technica's will also work. I have one at home at the moment which I am going to stick a Shure V15III on just for the hell of it...

Earlier Dual's like the 1228 shipped with Shure carts I think. Grado's and again the Audio Technica's should be a good match.

I wouldn't buy a new cart until you see what's on there though as you can generally just change the stylus unless it's something obscure. All the carts you mention have been in production for almost 30 years anyway.

I would buy some Foculpods especially for the 505 as it needs more isolation than afforded by the standard plastic stubs. The 1228 is heavier in build but both will benefit from being put on a good isolated surface like a wall shelf or a light rigid table on a solid floor.

 

[lini]

Braver: I'd recommend to go for the CS505-2. While not as good as a TD160, it's easier to adjust and still easily good enough to qualify as a proper record player. And you won't have any shortage of spare parts, as it's minimally modified successor CS505-4 is stll built today - including spare headshells, which might invite you to collect a choice of cartridges. And while only semi-automatic, it's more versatile than the full-automatic 1228 and 521, 'cause the Headshells aren't designed for Dual-specific mount types, for which the 1/2" adaptors are getting rather scarce, but directly for standard 1/2" mount. The stock cartridge on the 505-2 was the DUAL ULM-65E, which is the same as the Ortofon OM(B)10 - hence you can also upgrade it with the better Ortofon needles 20, 30 and 40. Needle 20 is already quite a big step up.

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini

 

[Braver]

Well I just returned home with the 505-2. It's pristine, aside from some absolutely minor marks. Now I just wish the Phonobox got here yesterday

looks like my first listen will be monday, and then I'll decide on what cartridge to get.

Woohoo

 

[lini]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Braver /img/forum/go_quote.gif (...) and then I'll decide on what cartridge to get.

As a first upgrade, I'd definitely recommend to go for Ortofon's Needle 20 as replacement for the needle of the stock ULM-65E, which will turn it into an OM(B)20 - try that and see how you like it: It's the easiest upgrade you could make, because it only requires you to swap the needles without any further adjustments - and the result is a fine tracker with light-footed, slender and very balanced character. Cheapest way to get it over here at the moment is to buy a complete OMB20 from William Thakker, who offers it for < 70 Euro: http://www.williamthakker.eu/product...oducts_id=1870

Another nice cartridge for the Dual that is attractively priced at the moment, and one that would provide you with a different, but equally good tonal flavour compared to the OM(B)20, is the Shure M97xE - Thomann.de offers it for 85 Euro.

And yet another good option and different flavour would be the Audio Technica AT-120E (~ 70 Euro), which also can be upgraded with better needles (ATN-125LC, ATN-130E, ATN-140LC/440ML et cetera).

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini

 

[Braver]

Yeah, at this point I'm liking the idea of the needle upgrade. I'll check the stores you mentioned: ordering from Germany might be a very good idea, if there's more choices there (not too many online here, and the local hifi-store only has grado).

On a sidenote: the dustcover actually amplifies the sound enough for me to hear what's on the vinyl without hooking it up. Yeah, I had to try

But I bet there's some room for improvement in this model, with all the plastic and such. Already heard some talk of "sandbox"-mods... ah well, lets hook it up properly first

 

[Braver]

Woohoo, Phonobox was waiting for me to come home

Just had to try it, but it sounds great. Even the Bruce Springsteen album I payed 1,25 for was pretty good pop-and-click-wise.

Question: how to know if the needle is really gone? I'll still probably upgrade, but untill that time I'd like to use the old one. What do I look/listen for to know if it's damaging the vinyl??

 

[memepool]

you can pull it off very gently and look at it under a strong magnifying glass ( 30X) to see how the needle looks. But I would just buy a new one it's not really worth risking as records are very easy to damage.

 

[lini]

Braver: As memepool already mentioned, you could inspect the needle with a magnifying glass or microscope. If you're using a magnifying glass, I'd rather recommend to remove the complete headshell than pulling off the needle assembly, though - that'll be easier and less risky. Still, it'll be hard to do an inspection without knowing what to look for/without a frame of reference - so you'd best google around a bit for some pics to give you an idea of how a good needle (elliptical in your case) should look like (e.g. AT's cartridge guide (PDF there: http://www.vinylengine.com/library_m...tridge%20Guide). About the same goes for listening: without a frame of reference, it'll be difficult to tell... However, if what you're hearing seems free of distortion, smooth and yet detailed, chances are high that the needle is in good shape.

memepool: Looking forward to your V15III experiment results. I'd expect you to be very positively surprised. In contrast to some high-end manufacturers' ideology, my personal experience tells me that it's not always wise to put the majority of the budget into the drive and arm: While that sure makes sense in terms of "I can always upgrade to a better cart later on", I rather favour a decent middle-class table with a good to very good cartridge for some 100 to 300 Euro for the "I want the best playback quality for some 500 Euro max right now"-approach...

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini

 

[memepool]

The tip on my V15 looks buggered sadly so I didn't bother. I sorted out the deck for a friend, put new belts on it and cleaned it up..etc

So far tired it with an Empire 909 cart which I happened to have a new stylus for and was very happy with the results. The V15 would be about as far as I'd go with it though and that would be pushing it, I fear with that spindly tonearm.

It's a really great little deck, much better than I remembered. The only really obvious giveaway is that it's a bit insubstantial compared to my heavyweight Thorens / Origin Live / Supex combo. You can tell that the music hasn't got any real weight behind it but that's nitpicking really considering the original in cost. It certainly walks all over a Dual 504 I still have somewhere.

 

[lini]

Maybe the 909 isn't compliant enough - the ULM arms work best with real high compliance carts (25 µm/mN and over). The Shure would have been a really good match...

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini