[ronfifer]

Question: I just bought AKG K702, AD900x, and HE-4XX open back headphones for competitive fps gaming on PC.

I'm trying to figure out which route to take to complete the setup on my gaming laptop, to achieve optimal directional accuracy:

1. USB soundcard with Virtual Surround features, just in case i need VSS for immersive singpleplayer games. (My best options here are SoundblasterX G6 or X7. Do you agree?)

OR

2. Dedicated stack of amp and dac like JDS EL DAC + Massdrop THX AAA 789 balanced amp (future proof investment that allows me to upgrade to more demanding balanced planar headphones like the Argon MK3 BUT lacks any VSS features at DAC level so i would only play in stereo mode. Can I still use software VSS engine in this scenario, e.g. HeSuvi, just for single player games? If not, can i skip the DAC and output processed VSS signal from my onboard card directly to the amp via the standard line-outs on the laptop?)

Option 2 is way more expensive but opens up the cans and brings them to life, reportedly better than a USB soundcard. I can't decide between 1 and 2, strictly for competitive FPS gaming in Battlefield and occasional single player immersive gaming.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

Question: I just bought AKG K702, AD900x, and HE-4XX open back headphones for competitive fps gaming on PC.

I'm trying to figure out which route to take to complete the setup on my gaming laptop, to achieve optimal directional accuracy:

1. USB soundcard with Virtual Surround features, just in case i need VSS for immersive singpleplayer games. (My best options here are SoundblasterX G6 or X7. Do you agree?)

OR

2. Dedicated stack of amp and dac like JDS EL DAC + Massdrop THX AAA 789 balanced amp (future proof investment that allows me to upgrade to more demanding balanced planar headphones like the Argon MK3 BUT lacks any VSS features at DAC level so i would only play in stereo mode. Can I still use software VSS engine in this scenario, e.g. HeSuvi, just for single player games? If not, can i skip the DAC and output processed VSS signal from my onboard card directly to the amp via the standard line-outs on the laptop?)

Option 2 is way more expensive but opens up the cans and brings them to life, reportedly better than a USB soundcard. I can't decide between 1 and 2, strictly for competitive FPS gaming in Battlefield and occasional single player immersive gaming.

A soundcard that will actually mix a surround sound into 2ch with spatial cues will do what a DAC-HPamp can't. However:

1. Those two options are not mutually exclusive. You can use a soundcard with optical output and feed that to a DAC-HPamp or a DAC that feeds a HPamp. Get the correct amplifier and you're not restricted on headphone choices.

2. If your games have a specific Headphone audio option, that's already a 2ch signal with spatial cues, so you might not even need the soundcard.

 

[ronfifer]

Thank you but i don't fully understand what you suggested.

I have an on board Realtek HD soundcard with NO optical out (laptop), only 2 standard left and right line-out. It has its own DSP engine.

I can bypass it and use a USB soundcard like the G6.

Or i can bypass it and use a dedicated DAC/Amp stack + VSS software like hesuvi or Razer Surround.

Can you please use a visual chain > to show me how you suggest the connection can take place using the different combination of audio devices up to the headphone? purpose is to maximize directional accuracy in FPS gaming.

 

[PurpleAngel]

Question: I just bought AKG K702, AD900x, and HE-4XX open back headphones for competitive fps gaming on PC.
I'm trying to figure out which route to take to complete the setup on my gaming laptop, to achieve optimal directional accuracy: 1. USB soundcard with Virtual Surround features, just in case i need VSS for immersive single player games. (My best options here are Sound BlasterX G6 or X7. Do you agree?) OR
2. Dedicated stack of amp and dac like JDS EL DAC + Massdrop THX AAA 789 balanced amp (future proof investment that allows me to upgrade to more demanding balanced planar headphones like the Argon MK3 BUT lacks any VSS features at DAC level so i would only play in stereo mode. Can I still use software VSS engine in this scenario, e.g. HeSuvi, just for single player games? If not, can i skip the DAC and output processed VSS signal from my onboard card directly to the amp via the standard line-outs on the laptop?) Option 2 is way more expensive but opens up the cans and brings them to life, reportedly better than a USB soundcard. I can't decide between 1 and 2, strictly for competitive FPS gaming in Battlefield and occasional single player immersive gaming.

A software only audio processing software (VSS?) should be able to send the processed headphone audio out the computer's USB port.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

A soundcard that will actually mix a surround sound into 2ch with spatial cues will do what a DAC-HPamp can't. However:

1. Those two options are not mutually exclusive. You can use a soundcard with optical output and feed that to a DAC-HPamp or a DAC that feeds a HPamp. Get the correct amplifier and you're not restricted on headphone choices.

Thank you but i don't fully understand what you suggested.

By "not mutually exclusive" it means you can use a soundcard - whether PCI-E or in your case a USB unit - that has an optical SPDIF output. You will then enable gaming-related DSP features on that soundcard and then send out the signal via its SPDIF optical output to a DAC-HPamp or a DAC connected to a headphone amp.

Can you please use a visual chain > to show me how you suggest the connection can take place using the different combination of audio devices up to the headphone?

Note: the 3.5mm combo port on the G6 requires an adapter for the optical cable.

I have an on board Realtek HD soundcard with NO optical out (laptop)...

This is where I got confused...you said "soundcard," so I assumed what you have might be a desktop since even the fattest gaming laptops haven't had their audio circuits on a card separate and can be pulled off the motherboard.

In any case, some USB soundcards (as distinct from PCI-E soundcards which have similar features with a different interface and DACs which don't have DSPs) have the same digital output (as shown with the G6 in the diagram above).

Whatever the soundcard is you can use its equivalent to VSS to apply the necessary processing, keep the signal digital, then send it out to a DAC-HPamp or a DAC connected to a HPamp, if you need to use a HPamp then a DAC keeps the signal clean.

In your particular case though the G6 already has a line out that is separate from the headphone output (unlike motherboards which, though the DSP is useful, the circuit on the dual purpose F/R and HPout is primarily designed as a HPoutput), so you can use its own DAC and run a 3.5mm to RCA cable if you get a headphone that needs more clean power than the G6's USB-powered amp circuit can provide.

...It has its own DSP engine.

I can bypass it and use a USB soundcard like the G6.

Another curious bit about your particular use case though is why you want to bypass it in the first place if your laptop has VSS. Is that an MSI?

Why not just pick a relatively good headphone with imaging that is known to be good for gaming that has 96dB/1mW or higher sensitivity and impedance that isn't too low nor too high, ie between 32ohms and 100ohms?

Or i can bypass it and use a dedicated DAC/Amp stack + VSS software like hesuvi or Razer Surround.
---
...purpose is to maximize directional accuracy in FPS gaming.

The components between the soundcard and headphone amp or the lack of either will not determine directional accuracy. The DSP - whether on an actual PCI-E soundcard, on the motherboard whether a gaming motherboard or a gaming laptop,* a USB sound"card," or even purely software as native Headphone Audio mode in some games or Razer Surround - will primarily determine how accurate the spatial cues will be since they'll mix it to play across two channels with spatial reverb so your perception of the sound will be that it comes not from hard left nor hard right or even dead center, but anywhere along that line and farther out a little bit. The headphone becomes a factor only in the sense that it either needs to have a wide and deep soundstage like the K70x or AD700, or if it has some problems in the response like the too hard pan Left-Right, strong dead center imaging on Grados. The amp in turn only becomes a factor if the headphone needs more power without distorting like for the K701, and in turn the DAC is only essential if you need to be sure you're sending a very clean signal to the amp. In short, the DAC and HPamp are only really essential for HiFi.

For mostly just gaming just get a relatively easy to drive headphone. Even with a little bit of distortion it's not like that mp3 gun sfx will sound drastically different if you have a flat response headphone getting 512mW of power with only 0.001% distortion and noise. Just get the AD900X and use VSS off your laptop or Headphone mode in your games (with VSS on the laptop's bundled software disabled) and keep fragging. If you can't frag...the audio isn't the real problem there anymore.


*as distinct from other laptops with Dolby Headphone bundled, since in most cases, this only works on movies, and more like Dolby Headphone on media players than Dolby Headphone on soundcards

 

[ronfifer]

Potegemaniac, thank you very much for the detailed explanation. Your last section made perfect sense. To reach a more conclusive answer on the best way forward, i feel the need to clarify my specs, and pardon me for not being clear from the beginning.

I have an MSI GT62VR Dominator Pro gaming laptop with Realtek HD (inc. Sabre DAC) on board audio chip. It can perform 7.1 DSP, and has the following ports:
- 1 Headphone out, 3.5mm
- 1 line in, 3.5mm (aka SPDIF Coax?)
- 1 line out, 3.5mm (aka SPDIF Coax?)
- 1 Mic jack, I will never use a mic so let's forget about it

Open Back Headphones for FPS gaming that I own (still on the way for delivery):

-AD900x
-K702
-HE4XX

You made a statement that directional accuracy is only determined by, and depending on which one I use:

- Pure software emulation such as Razer Surround or Hesuvi (don't know what FPS gamers think of their positional accuracy)
or
- Onboard realtek audio (never tried its Headphone output with DSP)
or
- USB soundcard with specialized DSS features like SounblasterX G6 or Senn GSX 1000

I agree that the DAC and AMP are out of the equation here. My question was which one of these 3 options would be the best way to go?

Did you suggest I buy USB soundcard AND DAC+HDAmp and connect all 3 together? That's more and more expensive. But is this the way you see it best for accurate imaging?

 

[PurpleAngel]

As your laptop's on-board audio comes with a 3.5mm S/PDIF optical port, you could get Creative Labs 720 software, which runs off a Realtek processor.
So the processed headphone surround sound is sent out of the optical port, to the DAC.
Other software based headphone surround sound should also work with the optical port.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

You made a statement that directional accuracy is only determined by, and depending on which one I use:

- Pure software emulation such as Razer Surround or Hesuvi (don't know what FPS gamers think of their positional accuracy)
or
- Onboard realtek audio (never tried its Headphone output with DSP)
or
- USB soundcard with specialized DSS features like SounblasterX G6 or Senn GSX 1000

I agree that the DAC and AMP are out of the equation here. My question was which one of these 3 options would be the best way to go?

I'd go with what you already have on the laptop, problem is...

Open Back Headphones for FPS gaming that I own (still on the way for delivery):

-AD900x
-K702
-HE4XX

...Two of those are going to need 512mW at 62ohms and 35ohms. So while you have the software covered, the hardware might be a problem in terms of loudness.

Then again if the AD900X can get loud enough with the laptop while the others can't then just return or sell the other two.

On the upside, check your laptop's manual. Somebody else posted before about an MSI laptop and I told him to check the manual. I had a lot of freetime that time so when he said he can't find SPDIF support I asked for the model number...I downloaded the manual...and true enough the laptop has an SPDIF optical+analogue stereo audio jack.

If yours has that just get an adapter for it and you want to try a lower sensitivity headphone, or just ensure low output impedance for driving the AD900X, buy the 3.5mm to optical adapter, hook it up to a DAC, and make sure VSS is enabled.

Did you suggest I buy USB soundcard AND DAC+HDAmp and connect all 3 together? That's more and more expensive.

It can be just two if you use a DAC-HPamp in a single chassis. Semantics aside, either way you can minimize the cost by going with as cheap a soundcard as you can provided it has optical output. Xonar U3 is only $30, Schiit Modi3 is $100, Asgard3 is $200. If your laptop does have an optical output combo jack then you just need the adapter instead of a USB soundcard.

But is this the way you see it best for accurate imaging?

For music, yes, since you can choose the headphone with deepest and widest imaging even if it means that the engineering compromise for it is lower sensitivity ie it needs more power and either too high nominal impedance that swings around (HD800) or low impedance that among other things makes it tend to sound too thin on some amps (K70x).

For gaming, not necessarily. The gain in soundstage size plus the tone on properly powered K70x headphones might be preferable over the ADx00 series for listening to music with your feet up but once you factor in other stimuli - visual on screen, other aural stimuli like team chat, mouse clicks and key hits, game updates and objectives, etc - the difference will not be as noticeable much less worth it for the additional equipment. Ditto how anything short of outright clipping and bad distortion isn't going to make for a stark difference in how much better you will perceive mp3 SFX is on one system vs another unless you're hearing them back to back.

If you're going to use the same rig for listening to music my money's on the K70x or HE4xx series, if you're even interested in trying upstream components after hearing all three of those on the laptop back to back with the AT getting louder easily assuming it doesn't distort badly (due to the laptop's line out having too high output impedance).

 

[ronfifer]

Thank you purpleheart and protegemaniac.

Protegemaniac, you have a unique and well detailed perspective, please hang on with me for a bit.

I can confirm that i do NOT have an optical line out on my laptop. I just have 1 line out which looks exactly the same as the standard headphone jack. I assume that is SPDIF coax? I dont understand why must i use an optical out instead?

What is the main design you are suggesting?

CPU > USB soundcard with VSS and optical line out > DAC > Amp > headphone?

What is your take on:

VSS software (Razer or Hesuvi) > DAC via USB > Amp > Headphone ?

And what is your take on:

VSS software > onboard audio Coaxial lineout > AMP > Headphone?

 

[ProtegeManiac]

I can confirm that i do NOT have an optical line out on my laptop. I just have 1 line out which looks exactly the same as the standard headphone jack. I assume that is SPDIF coax? I dont understand why must i use an optical out instead?

No. It's Optical. It's right in the manual.
https://us.msi.com/Laptop/support/GT62VR-DOMINATOR-PRO-7th-Gen-GTX-1070#down-manual

The only problems there are:

1. The wording. It's not just for speakers. MSI is assuming that people who buy this will only use it with a soundbar so they say "speakers."

2. You need a 3.5mm optical adapter (https://www.amazon.com/Recoton-Fiber-Optic-Toslink-Adapter/dp/B0002MQGRM?ref_=fsclp_pl_dp_5) or an optical cable with one end designed to go directly into a combo 3.5mm socket (https://www.amazon.com/KabelDirekt-...ocphy=9031597&hvtargid=pla-323411397252&psc=1).

Check your own copy of the manual but this is the only one on MSI's website and it's for both versions of that laptop.

Also...again...this is if you choose a headphone that can't get loud enough or for some reason doesn't sound right and might be attributable to the amp circuit on the laptop so you want to try if an amp will solve that problem. Personally I'd just hook up the AD900X to the headphone output and just play.

What is the main design you are suggesting?

CPU > USB soundcard with VSS and optical line out > DAC > Amp > headphone?

What is your take on:

VSS software (Razer or Hesuvi) > DAC via USB > Amp > Headphone ?

And what is your take on:

VSS software > onboard audio Coaxial lineout > AMP > Headphone?

No. I mean if you chooose a headphone that will sound better with an amp - not for directionality per se, but you choose one with good directionality but it's not loud enough or has some distortion or whatever - then do this:

Laptop (MSI NAHIMIC VSS On) combo SPDIF/headphone jack used as SPDIF output >3.5mm to optical> DAC >analogue RCA> HPamp >headphone cable> headphone, or

Laptop (MSI NAHIMIC VSS On) combo SPDIF/headphone jack used as SPDIF output >3.5mm to optical> DAC-HPamp >headphone cable> headphone

Otherwise, again, personally I'd just hook up the AD900X to the headphone output and spend more time playing and getting better playing than worrying about being handicapped by things that don't matter as much as you think once you have virtual surround and a decent headphone.

 

[ronfifer]

Makes sense now, thank you.

2 things:

1. I uninstalled Nahimic VSS becauae it is very unstable to play and prevents some games from launching or working properly. That's why i suggested Hesuvi, Razer Surround, or the control panel of realtek HD on board for VSS. Purpleheart suggested i install Creative's Pro Studio so it could perform DSP on my on board realtek. Have you tried something similar before?

2. So basically you recommend i go with option 2 from my original post. Thank you for correcting me about the optical port. Do you recommend a dac/amp 2 in 1 for me? I was thinking of jds el dac + smsl sp 200 THX AAA 888 balanced amp. I prefer balanced amps to allow for future upgrades to more hard to drive planar headphones like argon mk3. Schiit HEL is a nice 2 in 1 amp/dac but is not balanced.

I have to give you credits for your logical progression while communicating and consistently staying on topic. This has been my major problem with users on 4 major forums since i started my research in August.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

1. I uninstalled Nahimic VSS becauae it is very unstable to play and prevents some games from launching or working properly. That's why i suggested Hesuvi, Razer Surround, or the control panel of realtek HD on board for VSS.

Use whichever one works. I'm pretty agnostic with that since you can't compare them the way you can compare hardware and software with a copy of music that remains constant. Demos on each inflate their own capabilities, and using even the same part of a game across different types of virtual surround is still problematic since what if you didn't move at the exact same line in each test?That can affect how the software interprets what you should hear. All that's sure is whether I use Creative on my new motherboard or Xonar on my old PC with a USB Xonar unit is that both are an improvement over nothing.

That said...you might not even need those. Like I already said, check your games. Even Total War: Shogun II recently received an update (or I recently became aware of the new feature) for Headphone Stereo in the sound options just like FPS games. So far SBX seems to work better on a 5.1 signal than direct headphone audio but that's for Shogun II. For CS:GO 5.1 into Xonar Dolby Headphone vs native Headphone audio mode barely makes a difference even on the bgm at the start screen.

Purpleheart suggested i install Creative's Pro Studio so it could perform DSP on my on board realtek. Have you tried something similar before?

If you just mean using software that my computer/motherboard/soundcard doesn't come with, I only tried Razer Surround.

2. So basically you recommend i go with option 2 from my original post.

What? No.

I only explained how to go about that if needed. IF. I used "if" several times.

At the end of which I kept saying that for simplicity's sake why eliminate the option to only use the AD900X, more so because this entire discussion has been about gaming and not hi-fi playback at all.

Thank you for correcting me about the optical port. Do you recommend a dac/amp 2 in 1 for me? I was thinking of jds el dac + smsl sp 200 THX AAA 888 balanced amp. I prefer balanced amps to allow for future upgrades to more hard to drive planar headphones like argon mk3. Schiit HEL is a nice 2 in 1 amp/dac but is not balanced.

Only IF you need it. (there it is again)

Why not just try the AD900Xi hooked up to the laptop? If it sounds weird it could be that the amp circuit on the MSI has a design flaw (again, there's a qualifier, which isn't guaranteed to be certain), then that's when you get all the other stuff.

 

[PurpleAngel]

Thank you purpleheart and protegemaniac.
Protegemaniac, you have a unique and well detailed perspective, please hang on with me for a bit.
I can confirm that i do NOT have an optical line out on my laptop. I just have 1 line out which looks exactly the same as the standard headphone jack. I assume that is SPDIF coax? I don't understand why must i use an optical out instead?
What is the main design you are suggesting?
CPU > USB soundcard with VSS and optical line out > DAC > Amp > headphone?
What is your take on:
VSS software (Razer or Hesuvi) > DAC via USB > Amp > Headphone ?
And what is your take on:
VSS software > onboard audio Coaxial line-out > AMP > Headphone?

I check the manual, it's says S/PDIF optical, most optical ports/jacks are Toslink, your uses the mini-toslink (3.5mm) port/jack, which also functions as a standard 3.5mm headphone jack.

 

[ronfifer]

Lol i called you purpleheart by mistake...

 

[ronfifer]

@ProtegeManiac is this a good DAC to buy as agreed? SMSL-SU-8, Link to Massdrop page.

This is for the He-4XX and other planar headphones that i plan to buy in the future. Just checking if it has the right inputs and ouput ports that you think I need, referring to your design map from before:

Laptop (MSI NAHIMIC VSS On) combo SPDIF/headphone jack used as SPDIF output >3.5mm to optical> DAC >analogue RCA> HPamp >headphone cable> headphone