[bigshot]

Higher bitrates sound the same as 16/44.1. DSPs are great if you like their effect, but they aren't adding sound. They're only processing the sound that is already there.

 

[Redcarmoose]

Higher bitrates sound the same as 16/44.1. DSPs are great if you like their effect, but they aren't adding sound. They're only processing the sound that is already there.

It IS an effect. And I would expect your response to be exactly as you worded it. And just as home cinema had surround sound in the 1980s the effects have gotten more sophisticated and elaborate. Here we almost have an effect which makes files sound full when turned on. When turned off the same file sounds like what it is which is a low bitrate file. Somehow it knows what to add and where to add it to. Also purists don’t mind because they can turn it off with good sounding files, but it doesn’t degrade the music in any way.

It’s an enhancement DSP or maybe rather a smart DSP? They are adding sound maybe in the same way a reverb would add sound?

 

[bigshot]

Lossless is lossless. High bitrate lossy sounds exactly the same as lossless. HD audio files sound the same too. No difference between any of those. If you want to use a DSP, and it sounds better to you that way, go for it. If you don't think it sounds better, then don't use it. But not using sound processing on principle is stupid. Improving sound quality isn't degrading sound quality. No transducer is perfect. You have to calibrate to correct for that. If you don't, your sound quality is being limited by your transducer. People who refuse to EQ are cheating themselves of getting the best out of their system. I can see not using processing on a mobile rig that you want to keep as light and simple as possible, but not a home system... and especially not a speaker system.

 

[Redcarmoose]

Probably the neat thing is at first it comes off as a gimmick, but then you learn it really does what it’s intended and advertised to do. Obviously not everyone is going to appreciate it, but many do.

Normally audiophiles move away from such toys, though here it may be a blessing.

 

[bigshot]

I use DSPs all the time. They can do great things.

 

[Monstieur]

My Sony WH-1000XM2 has DSEE HX. I've listened to it extensively and there is absolutely no audible difference with it on or off, at least not with AAC over Bluetooth. The sound quality of these headphones is so bad that the notion of including a "Hi-Res" DSP like DSEE HX is laughable. The drivers' horrendous natural response is already corrected with DSP, pushing them into distortion. Adding DSEE HX on top of this, even if it has benefits in theory, is pointless.

 

[Steve999]

I am very skeptical of audio "hi-res." My stance is, if Sony is going to make a claim like that, prove it. I call B.S. The technology is way over my head but I call B.S. If they are just taking the sound through unnecessary processing to pass off a hyped-up technology, that's bad. It seems to me that that could only hurt or be neutral in terms of sound quality. Apparently some people hear a slight increase in fullness at low bitrates. Okay, fine. But I'd like to see some ABXs or something.

I have a pair of Sony MDR-V6s. They still sell them. Love them. Those came out about 33 years ago. I have a pair of Sony MDR-CD780s. Long discontinued. Surpasses the V6s for sound quality to my ears. 50mm drivers, well-implemented. Function over form. Wonderful. Other than that, for my taste, every Sony headphone I have tried since then has been way off-base for sound quality. I tried a couple for a week or two a few years ago. I was just puzzled. I was wondering if they were working from a different paradigm as to what is good sound or something.

I am quite skeptical of Chord products too. Maybe they have some good ones where they are not trying to charge a premium for jewelry-class looks and technical overkill or snake-oil but they have burned up any benefit of the doubt from me.

I hesitate to say this in a public forum, but the Bose QC35s are getting an extremely good rep, sometimes even from long-time haters, I think. Same price range. No hi-res B.S., no pulling your leg. They also use DSP and they do what they do. They may be getting much, much closer to the mark in terms of sound quality. I haven't had a pair from which to form an opinion. Bose charges a little extra and gives you great customer service in return (especially if you buy from a Bose store). I believe they use AAC by default when streaming over bluetooth. No harm in trying them and returning them if you don't like them.

Just my two cents.

My Sony WH-1000XM2 has DSEE HX. I've listened to it extensively and there is absolutely no audible difference with it on or off, at least not with AAC over Bluetooth. The sound quality of these headphones is so bad that the notion of including a "Hi-Res" DSP like DSEE HX is laughable. The drivers' horrendous natural response is already corrected with DSP, pushing them into distortion. Adding DSEE HX on top of this, even if it has benefits in theory, is pointless.

 

[Zapp_Fan]

edit: an error

 

[Glmoneydawg]

Probably the neat thing is at first it comes off as a gimmick, but then you learn it really does what it’s intended and advertised to do. Obviously not everyone is going to appreciate it, but many do.

Normally audiophiles move away from such toys, though here it may be a blessing.

Dsp room correction is available with several high end speaker companies products now including Martin Logan....better get your wallet out though.

 

[Monstieur]

Dsp room correction is available with several high end speaker companies products now including Martin Logan....better get your wallet out hough.

A room is random factor and thus correction is absolutely required for speakers. A headphone that does not naturally produce a desirable response is defective by design. Digital correction increases the already poor distortion of dynamic drivers.

 

[Glmoneydawg]

A room is random factor and thus correction is absolutely required for speakers. A headphone that does not naturally produce a desirable response is defective by design. Digital correction increases the already poor distortion of dynamic drivers.

Agreed.....most decent headphones are pretty flat though...DSP is probably best used to flatten bass response in room...highy unlikely you will get flat bass in any room unless your speakers have some kind of bass management system,regardless of price.

 

[Redcarmoose]

DSEE HX is strange as said before, at first I didn’t hear any difference when it was on or off. Then after getting the SONY TA headphone amp I could hear the difference, then heard the difference with the Sony DAPs that have it.

But I’m pretty sloppy and unscientific about it. And at times I try to implement it and don’t hear a difference. When I say I’m unscientific about it.......because of the fact that I don’t always use the same headphones and the 320 kbps files or 16bit-44.1kHz files are always different. Add to that the mental phenomenon of expectation bias and placebo effect.....and well.....it’s a wash.

But I’m going to try and get more regimented. With the DAPs it would be good to figure out when to use it and when not to as it is a big battery drainer.

 

[castleofargh]

collective answer.
DSP, digital signal processing, can be anything and everything. no example of a random DSP is going to tell us much about the quality or justification for using another one with a different purpose(objective or subjective). DSEE is something aimed at a subjective improvement/change, with objective marketing(because Sony?), as obviously one does not recreate accurate extra data out of nothing.

I do not think of headphones as pretty flat(good or not, expensive or not). IMO they require correction just as much as speakers in a room. it's not done, because a good deal of the corrections require custom measurements of the listener's head(or at least of the sound getting into his ears with and without the headphone). it's just not practical to do and might often cost more than the headphone. so far, instead of working harder to provide the right answer, most manufacturers opted for not bothering at all with that issue. in a "if we don't look, it's not there" approach.

I also do not agree that a DSP is going to increase distortions. it's certainly possible, but then the opposite is also very possible.

 

[Monstieur]

The DSP correction in this case is a +10 dB boost at 20 Hz which obviously creates distortion. It's not surprising the sub-bass quality is very poor.
https://www.innerfidelity.com/images/SonyMDR1000XWiredPassive.pdf

 

[Redcarmoose]

“The fact that we are seeing Field Programable Gate Arrays allowing real-time processing of signal much like a DSP. This technology made big steps in the 1990s but now doing DSEE HX processing in a way only dreamed about 15 years ago.”

Quoted myself above.
https://www.google.co.id/amp/s/blog...hx-with-audio-engineer-kenichi-matsumoto/amp/


I look at it like a powerful computer chip studing the music and adding in something to give the impression of a lossless file from a lossy file. It is very subtle and that’s probably why I can’t replicate it with 100% of my equipment when in place?

But I will try to get an amp and headphones system together hopefully getting the resolve enough to hear it 100% of the time. It’s a simple on and off switch.....so there is no reason why my wife couldn't turn it off and on, while I try to hear it while it’s in place.

It is subtle and many other companies have low effect digital filters on their DACs which do little or nothing. Though when DCEE HX is up and running it sure does sound like it’s doing what it’s designed to do. You just have to have a clear enough system in place for it to be effective.

There has to be a high enough resolution with the headphones to hear it. It’s heard as a slight warmth and thickness, which just happens to be the quality that IS missing from lossy audio in comparison to 16bit/44.1kHz.

And it is marketing too, as if a company can deliver more options to the consumer, they appear to have a product of greater value. But if there really is something here. If there is something that is real, it’s a great step for digital audio. It’s like bumping your 720p video up to 1080p.