[Prog Rock Man]

Having taken part in a lively debate recently where my kit was described as budget, which surprised me, I am looking for advice on how best to go about upgrading it. Ignoring the computer I use as a source for my music files and streamed music my main set up is

AKG K702, cost new £230, top of the AKG range.
MF X-CANV8P, cost new £400, top of the MF range
Firestone Fubar USB DAC and Supplier, cost new £230, top of the range.

So that is three product which, within the manufacturers range, I cannot improve on and cost a total of £860. I want to retain the sound of MF and AKG where detail and 'being there' neutrality reigns supreme over any coloured sound with emphasis on the bass or whatever.

Lets say I have £3000, so roughly £1000 per item to spend. Can I improve significantly on what I have got, if so how?

Thanks. PRM.

 

[Drubbing]

Depends on what to you is 'significant'.

Unless you'd bought products for your phones that were particularly poor value for money, or you paid more than you should, I couldn't say if they were 'budget'. Price doesn't always dictate quality, but I dare say nearly 1000 quid in headphone gear buys plenty good sound. It matters not what others think your set up lies in the hierachy of budget, mid fi or high end - does it sound great to you? If so, an upgrade is pointless, unless you really need to have gear validation on here (which is so not worth it).

Assuming they're suited for the job for you phones, I'd suggest you've hit diminishing returns territory from here on.

Yes, you'll get improvement for your money, but the improvements will only be 'massive' depending on what you feel is 'significant'.

And given the numbers you've thrown up, I expect one of the next posts to have 'electrostatic' in it.

 

[Prog Rock Man]

Thats a nice reassuring reply Drubbing, thanks.

Significant to me would be a clear a noticeable bettering of the sound quality. At the moment I can feel that I am in the recording studio or the front row at a concert. But I can imagine an increased sound stage, better clarity and more detail being possible.

Not significant would be I only hear a difference in the sound, not an improvement, or I have to struggle to hear an improvement.

I know it matters not what others think, but I am curious because of what was said.

I also expect to have major problems with diminishing returns, so £3000 may not be enough.

I am expecting to get electrostatic suggestions, but unless such kit has the sound I first described above in my first post, I would see such as different as opposed to better.

 

[tvrboy]

Are you kidding? You have $4,000 USD to upgrade? Dude, that will be enough! I would be over the moon with a budget like that. You could get pretty much the best of everything - DAC1 ($600 used on agon), SPL Phonitor brand new, and HD800 brand new for that. Now, obviously being the plebeian that I am I've never heard those, don't know if that system has good synergy. Just saying that you're a lucky guy and you can afford the best this hobby has to offer. If I were you I would try to audition lots of cans first... see what you like... maybe you would have to go to a place like London for that, I dunno.

 

[Prog Rock Man]

Thanks tvrboy, the £3000 (US$4800) is a lets pretend amount. I dont have the money. I asked the question out of curiosity because my setup had been described as budget, though it is made up of three top of the range products from three companies. So, I am assuming that £3000 would take me into the midrange and I can see in the future (as my wife now has started to work) that I will have such a budget.

The DAC1 is an obvious to me upgrade on the Firestone. I am not so sure about the HD800s over the K702s. I have never heard of the SPL Phonitor, so I will look it up.

The 2730 at £1434. looks a amazing.

 

[stang]

Lol well yes a Benchmark DAC1 would be a great thing to buy in this case. A fantastic CD player are around $1000 (I think

). so lets say you spend a little more and spent $2000 on those two things. A fantastic amplifier would be a WooAudio 6 for approx $610usd with postage (estimate). That leaves you approx $1690 left if my math serves me right. I say spend quite a bit of money on different headphones to see which company suits your taste in headphones.

A list could include:

Grado SR-225
Sennheiser HD600 (sounds most like HD800 which you could get)
Denon D5000 (or LA2000 if possible)
AKG K701/2 (try and find K1000)

There are quite a few more but those would be great to start with if you want to try a different sound signature. But for sure for a DAC, gett he Benchmark DAC1 and Sennheisers and AKG seem to love WooAudio 6.

 

[InFn-0]

With a budget like that i would go for loudspeaker systems; i just cant justify spending that kind of money on a headphone system. Anyway, what do you think about going Vinyl?? I have never tried vinyl nor do i know $hit about it, but if i had a budget like yours, i would look into building an analog system.

 

[Drubbing]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prog Rock Man /img/forum/go_quote.gif Thats a nice reassuring reply Drubbing, thanks. I also expect to have major problems with diminishing returns, so £3000 may not be enough.

Er, do you understand the concept of diminishing returns? That's where improvements cost exponentially more than the $ amounts spent on them; it's not a matter of throwing even more money at the 'problem' to get past it.

You could spend all your budget and get, to your ears, only minimal improvement beyond what you already have. To some on here, those minimal, but audible improvements, are worth the vastly higher cost per $ to get them.

As for 'hierarchies' of set up, I have an RS2, DT250, MS1, a DACmagic, and a powerful but basic headphone amp. I consider my set up mid fi and couldn't care less how anyone classifies it. It's right where I want my sound to be.

Quote:

Originally Posted by InFn-0 /img/forum/go_quote.gif With a budget like that i would go for loudspeaker systems; i just cant justify spending that kind of money on a headphone system. Anyway, what do you think about going Vinyl?? I have never tried vinyl nor do i know $hit about it, but if i had a budget like yours, i would look into building an analog system.

Mate, do you actually think this even counts as advice - you know jack about analog, but think he should sink US$5K into it?

And if he was interested in speakers, he'd post in a speaker forum.

 

[baka1969]

Hi!

Before I decided on the GLite, I was very seriously looking at getting the X-Can. In essence, we both have a setup at similar levels. And you know what? I'm happy with that. In the end it's me who will be listening to my music through my headphones and the components that go with it. If some are or aren't impressed with what I have, that's ok. When I have Miles Davis on or Pink Floyd or even Nirvana wailing through my ears I don't think of what the Head-Fi community thinks. I'm just enjoying my tunes. And they sound damn good.

It's nice to have hypothetical money to buy a hypothetical system. Unfortunately I don't have hypothetical ears to listen to it.

Ross

 

[InFn-0]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drubbing /img/forum/go_quote.gif Mate, do you actually think this even counts as advice - you know jack about analog, but think he should sink US$5K into it? And if he was interested in speakers, he'd post in a speaker forum.

I meant using vinyl instead of cd/digital.

 

[Prog Rock Man]

Quote:

Originally Posted by stang /img/forum/go_quote.gif ..... A fantastic amplifier would be a WooAudio 6 for approx $610usd with postage (estimate)....... But for sure for a DAC, gett he Benchmark DAC1 and Sennheisers and AKG seem to love WooAudio 6.

That sounds like a great step up. Do you not think that such kit would deserve a higher end than the AKGs I have?

That would look good in my room and it is only a headphone amp, so I am not paying for stuff (pre-amps etc) I would not use.

Quote:

Originally Posted by InFn-0 /img/forum/go_quote.gif With a budget like that i would go for loudspeaker systems; i just cant justify spending that kind of money on a headphone system........ Anyway, what do you think about going Vinyl?? .

I am sticking with headfi and streaming over the internet and itunes, but thanks anyway. Interesting what you said about such a biog spend on a headphone system.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drubbing /img/forum/go_quote.gif Er, do you understand the concept of diminishing returns? That's where improvements cost exponentially more than the $ amounts spent on them; it's not a matter of throwing even more money at the 'problem' to get past it. You could spend all your budget and get, to your ears, only minimal improvement beyond what you already have. To some on here, those minimal, but audible improvements, are worth the vastly higher cost per $ to get them.

Thats why I posted this thread. I was unaware of a lot of the high end/high priced products that are out there. I thought top of the range AKG, MF and Firestone meant I was at least mid if not high range. My present system sounds great, I was wondering out loud what I would need to get to move up to the next level and if I would get more than minimal improvements for a vast expenditure.

Quote:

Originally Posted by baka1969 /img/forum/go_quote.gif ...... In essence, we both have a setup at similar levels. And you know what? I'm happy with that....... I don't think of what the Head-Fi community thinks. I'm just enjoying my tunes. And they sound damn good. Ross

Same here Ross, I asked the question out of curiosity. My present setup is brilliant for me, but I dont have anything else to refernce it to as the best I am able to do is audition loer end headphones, unsually out of ipods or from the headphone out on stereo amps. I have no where to go to listen to a mega system, so this is purely hypothetical.

Thanks for all the responses and suggestions.

 

[grokit]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prog Rock Man /img/forum/go_quote.gif That sounds like a great step up. Do you not think that such kit would deserve a higher end than the AKGs I have? snip I thought top of the range AKG, MF and Firestone meant I was at least mid if not high range.

I really like my K701s as well, but for a far more realistic budget, some new cans might make a world of difference; MF's web site says that your amp will drive the K1000s, so it should drive these picky headphones as well.

I just posted this there recently:

"The word I would use is... effortless. They banished my K701s from the room permanently, without even working up a sweat

I still like the AKGs, but they seem slow and clumsy with a misplaced soundstage and muddled instrumentation in direct comparison to the HE-5s. I was surprised that the K701s weren't much louder at the same volume with the EF5, but they were simply outclassed, no comparison."

Mine was post #1163, in a forum called "recent impressions" if that tells you anything. And no, my enthusiasm, while not 100% unanimous, is not an unusual reaction for these cans.

HiFiMan HE-5 Headphones. With your system, that's where I think you would see the most difference with for the least $ if you were to actually try something new.

 

[Prog Rock Man]

I found a very complimentary review of the HE-5s here

Pay less for world's best headphone? | The Audiophiliac - CNET News

They appear to be of a similar construction to these headphones from Ergo. The Model 1 and 2 look like they are electrostatic, but they use a magnets and membrane construction

STONEAUDIO UK | hi-fi, home cinema, multi-room, design and installation

 

[baka1969]

I'm not sure if I really want to listen to a system far superior to mine. In some way ignorance is bliss.

I believe in diminishing returns, but what if I go to a meet and listen to an amazing setup? Then I'll go home and hear every flaw in mine and become a malcontent. Of course I'd be obligated to sell a kidney to fund that new, better sounding, system.

In all seriousness, I know there are better dynamic setups than what I have, I just want to be ready for an entire revision before then. I'll wait until AKG announces it's shiny new flagship model before I have my fantasies.

 

[stang]

I do not think the Woo Audio 6 or Woo Audio 6 SE is too good for the K701. They are a perfect match for the Sennheiser HD650 and fantastic with the K701 or so I've heard. My mate has that SPL Monitor, not sure on the model though, although he loves it, I can't tell you anything more than that. The WA6 is an excellent choice though. That HE-5 is best paired with the EF-5 amplifier. I would say get that with a Benchmark DAC1 (should be around $1600usd all up used DAC1, not new) or the Woo Audio 6 or the SE version with the used DAC1 and try some different headphones. Something like HD650 or Denon DA7000/LA2000 (lawton audio D2000, fantastic 'phones). I am best with headphones, then Amplifiers and then DAC's. I know nothing about CD players, except Marantz seem to be very good. Also, a different DAC supposedly that has better sound quality than the DAC1 is the Lavry DA10, but it's aesthetics and inputs/outputs aren't as good as the DAC1. You're better off spending more time focusing on headphones, then the source, then DAC then amplifier.

Find the headphones that you absolutely love and upgrade your source if needed. Then get a DAC1/Lavry DA10 and then a nice amp like WA6. You seem to adore your K702 though and upgrading your source would mean getting a CD player which a good one will set you back at least $1000, if not closer to $1500 or $2000.