[geezweez]

I have a 32bit 384khz usbc to 3.5mm dongle. When i use it with my iems the volume gets as loud as i need it to be. I run 320khz files through it from deezer and ig seems to have plenty of detail

So what im wondering is how exactly would an amp give me any improvement if the volume is always loud enough and the chip in the dongle is built for high fidelity audio files?

 

[Paul Moerman]

I have a 32bit 384khz usbc to 3.5mm dongle. When i use it with my iems the volume gets as loud as i need it to be. I run 320khz files through it from deezer and ig seems to have plenty of detail

So what im wondering is how exactly would an amp give me any improvement if the volume is always loud enough and the chip in the dongle is built for high fidelity audio files?

an amp with its own power supply in theory should have more capacity in reserve to handle dynamic peaks. whether it's audible to any given person is another issue. if you are happy with your current setup, what would be the motivation to spend more $? if you are just curious tho, it's fun to try some things such as a schiit stack of some kind.

 

[baskingshark]

I have a 32bit 384khz usbc to 3.5mm dongle. When i use it with my iems the volume gets as loud as i need it to be. I run 320khz files through it from deezer and ig seems to have plenty of detail

So what im wondering is how exactly would an amp give me any improvement if the volume is always loud enough and the chip in the dongle is built for high fidelity audio files?

Generally, if you are driving mostly IEMs, most dongles are adequate, save for some outliers like the Final E5000.

When it comes to driving high impedance/low sensitivity stuff, then maybe some dongles fall short in power. We are not talking about driving to adequate volume, but if something is not well driven, the bass is flabby, soundstage is compressed and dynamics are lost. There's a difference in driving hard to drive gear to adequate volume, versus driving well.

 

[geezweez]

Generally, if you are driving mostly IEMs, most dongles are adequate, save for some outliers like the Final E5000.

When it comes to driving high impedance/low sensitivity stuff, then maybe some dongles fall short in power. We are not talking about driving to adequate volume, but if something is not well driven, the bass is flabby, soundstage is compressed and dynamics are lost. There's a difference in driving hard to drive gear to adequate volume, versus driving well.

So you're saying it can be giving enough power but for some reason not able to manage the output as well for dynamics?

 

[baskingshark]

So you're saying it can be giving enough power but for some reason not able to manage the output as well for dynamics?

For some high impedance/low sensitivity transducers, if fed inadequate juice, the dynamics are blunted yes. You may be getting adequate volume for loudness, but not for dynamics.

Most IEMs are generally easy to drive, so we are talking about other earbuds/headphones that may have harder to drive specs.

 

[o0genesis0o]

To me, the most eye-opening experiment was using Apple dongle to drive Moondrop Aria (easy to drive) and then adding the Topping G5 in the middle, handling the amping. The slightly fuzzy mushy bass of Aria that I can’t stop complaining about is mostly resolved. The dynamic variation is stronger, which improves the impression of “snappiness” and instrument definition. The added dynamic also increase the perception / illusion of depth by pushing the soundstage further from me.

I don’t think extra power is the reason. Despite being able to output a lot of power, G5 unlikely to output more power into Aria than Apple dongle if the loudness is exactly the same, since loudness is proportional to the received power (dB/mW rating). So it should be something else within powerful portable amp that makes that audible change. I don’t know exactly what that is, so I can’t conclude anything beyond “amping the Apple dongle makes IEMs sound great”.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

I have a 32bit 384khz usbc to 3.5mm dongle. When i use it with my iems the volume gets as loud as i need it to be. I run 320khz files through it from deezer and ig seems to have plenty of detail

So what im wondering is how exactly would an amp give me any improvement if the volume is always loud enough and the chip in the dongle is built for high fidelity audio files?

Think of it like computers. Why get a gaming laptop with or build a desktop when you can play on the SteamDeck?

If you're fine on a 7in 800p* display or outputting that to a small TV then you don't. That's like using only IEMs with even just a smartphone.

But if you want a bigger display at higher resolution* and high settings, if not ultra, or hey, ray tracing, then you need a 6800h+6800m or a 7800X3D and 7900XTX on the absolute opposite ends of it.

Meaning some headphones will require more power than other headphones and, heck, 99% of headphones will require more power than 99% of IEMs out there just to get to the same output level, on top of which IEMs have the isolation advantage so once it's an actual human listening in the real world as opposed to a microphone in a lab, chances are the gap will widen since they won't crank up the IEM to get to the same perceived output level.

*Note: not analogous to audio resolution, whether in bit depth or that one or the other is automatically going to help you hear more detail

 

[PhonoPhi]

To me, the most eye-opening experiment was using Apple dongle to drive Moondrop Aria (easy to drive) and then adding the Topping G5 in the middle, handling the amping. The slightly fuzzy mushy bass of Aria that I can’t stop complaining about is mostly resolved. The dynamic variation is stronger, which improves the impression of “snappiness” and instrument definition. The added dynamic also increase the perception / illusion of depth by pushing the soundstage further from me.

I don’t think extra power is the reason. Despite being able to output a lot of power, G5 unlikely to output more power into Aria than Apple dongle if the loudness is exactly the same, since loudness is proportional to the received power (dB/mW rating). So it should be something else within powerful portable amp that makes that audible change. I don’t know exactly what that is, so I can’t conclude anything beyond “amping the Apple dongle makes IEMs sound great”.

More "power" here indeed does not change much overall electrical energy output, since the same load is driven. What makes a difference for fast transients - is how fast power/voltage can be changed/modulated. This is most important for fast transients for the "crispiness", and dynamics.
E1DA powered just by phone (like older S10) and by an extrenal source with a usb splitter makes one of the most drastic demonstration of this kind.

Some relevant tests - measuring signal distortions of power sources at higher frequencies of 20-50 kHz while driving practical (or better low-impedance load, or even better something like Andromeda )

 

[geezweez]

That makes sense thanks guys

 

[IkSak]

More "power" here indeed does not change much overall electrical energy output, since the same load is driven. What makes a difference for fast transients - is how fast power/voltage can be changed/modulated. This is most important for fast transients for the "crispiness", and dynamics.
E1DA powered just by phone (like older S10) and by an extrenal source with a usb splitter makes one of the most drastic demonstration of this kind.

Some relevant tests - measuring signal distortions of power sources at higher frequencies of 20-50 kHz while driving practical (or better low-impedance load, or even better something like Andromeda )

Very interesting explanation. May I ask for clarification: how is measured that ability to modulate?

 

[PhonoPhi]

Very interesting explanation. May I ask for clarification: how is measured that ability to modulate?

"Modulating" will involve changing the signal (voltage) at high rate (high frequencies).
So using a frequency generator and applying the signal changing at a high rate, e.g. simple sinusoids at 20+ kHz, as an input signal to a DAC/amp, while measuring an output signal for any distortions.

I did it for testing IEM cables (a simple comparison, and no evidence whatsoever for the commonly promulgated "silver vs. copper" myth).
I did realize in these tests that measring past 30-40 kHz requires a very good poweful source with a low internal impedance.
So the "stress tests" at 20-60 kHz will be very revealing.

 

[IkSak]

thanks for your response. Accordingly your tests show that cables have no measurable influence on quality. But coming back to the dongle vs amp, is there any way to check if a dongle, say apple dongle is enough for most iems?

 

[PhonoPhi]

thanks for your response. Accordingly your tests show that cables have no measurable influence on quality. But coming back to the dongle vs amp, is there any way to check if a dongle, say apple dongle is enough for most iems?

My tests show that the only parameter that affects the signal propagation in IEM cables is the resistance (not capacitance or inductance and definitely not copper vs sliver at least in the range from 10 Hz to ca 30 kHz).

Cables do matter by
1. Resistance, so changing from thin/poor stock cables may be noticeable. The lower cable resistance are simpler for less effects, but since cables effectively function as an impedance adapter - there can be preferred cables (the difference is very subtle to my ears though, and again low-resistance cables are the easier way to go ).
2. Comfort for the fit - that is most important for me, a good flexible cable is comfortable and enables best fit for a good comfortable seal.
3. Aesthetics, colour matching - the psychoacoustics should not be underestimated. I can easily covince myself that my blue cables are the best since electrons like blue, and they must feel most welcome to propagate smoothly and most musically in these cables

Very briefly for the Apple dongle, it was designed fir the impedance of ca. 43 Ohm, so it works the best with IEMs from 30 to 60-100 Ohm. The upper range is governed by the IEM sensitivity and desired loudness levels. The lower limits are a more complex story.

 

[baskingshark]

My tests show that the only parameter that affects the signal propagation in IEM cables is the resistance (not capacitance or inductance and definitely not copper vs sliver at least in the range from 10 Hz to ca 30 kHz).

Cables do matter by
1. Resistance, so changing from thin/poor stock cables may be noticeable. The lower cable resistance are simpler for less effects, but since cables effectively function as an impedance adapter - there can be preferred cables (the difference is very subtle to my ears though, and again low-resistance cables are the easier way to go ).
2. Comfort for the fit - that is most important for me, a good flexible cable is comfortable and enables best fit for a good comfortable seal.
3. Aesthetics, colour matching - the psychoacoustics should not be underestimated. I can easily covince myself that my blue cables are the best since electrons like blue, and they must feel most welcome to propagate smoothly and most musically in these cables

Very briefly for the Apple dongle, it was designed fir the impedance of ca. 43 Ohm, so it works the best with IEMs from 30 to 60-100 Ohm. The upper range is governed by the IEM sensitivity and desired loudness levels. The lower limits are a more complex story.

Great info!

Would like to add a point about cable noise AKA microphonics. It is quite irritating with certain poorly sheathed cables, where the cable taps on your shirt or even your ear, and it transmits noise. Some of the badly microphonic cables can even drown out the music with the transmitted noise, which is a huge deal-breaker in my book.

I actually have a midFI cable costing about $150 from Nobunga cables, which has horrendous microphonics. No matter how angelic the sound is, or even how beautiful it is, I can't believe a top cable maker can overlook something as simple as microphonics.

 

[IkSak]

My tests show that the only parameter that affects the signal propagation in IEM cables is the resistance (not capacitance or inductance and definitely not copper vs sliver at least in the range from 10 Hz to ca 30 kHz).

Cables do matter by
1. Resistance, so changing from thin/poor stock cables may be noticeable. The lower cable resistance are simpler for less effects, but since cables effectively function as an impedance adapter - there can be preferred cables (the difference is very subtle to my ears though, and again low-resistance cables are the easier way to go ).
2. Comfort for the fit - that is most important for me, a good flexible cable is comfortable and enables best fit for a good comfortable seal.
3. Aesthetics, colour matching - the psychoacoustics should not be underestimated. I can easily covince myself that my blue cables are the best since electrons like blue, and they must feel most welcome to propagate smoothly and most musically in these cables

Very briefly for the Apple dongle, it was designed fir the impedance of ca. 43 Ohm, so it works the best with IEMs from 30 to 60-100 Ohm. The upper range is governed by the IEM sensitivity and desired loudness levels. The lower limits are a more complex story.

Outstanding explanation!