[Uncle00Jesse]

What's a good sounding turntable that doesn't require a Phd in engineering to set up properly?

 

[336881]

What's a good sounding turntable that doesn't require a Phd in engineering to set up properly?

Math is always involved. It's also not TT, arm, cart, but cart, arm, phono pre then TT. Do the math on matching the cart to the arm and then the pre and it should sound pretty good. Alignment matters but that is the first step. Vinyl engine database is an invaluable resource. The parts where I think of where the TT would come into play is spacing, variable pitch, belt, direct, idler drive, specs, hinged or un hinged dustcovers etc. which is a decent amount of things but should not have a big impact on the math of the cart, arm and pre.

If those 3 things are badly matched together then it does not matter how much money you spend on gear or how much money and time you spend with alignment. The math is done for you with the help of a few calculators out there on the web. Look on local audio forums if possible for help aligning.

 

[canister]

That's very interesting. So do you find headphones bring out more detail or is it just that they accentuate the unwanted bits?

Not that headphones accentuate the unwanted bits, just that in speaker listening, the unwanted bits become less noticeable, simply because you are further away from the transducers. Highly efficient horn loaded speakers, when driven by low power single-ended triode tube amps, will emit some kind of hum or hiss, to varying degrees. This unwanted 'noise' is prominent when one places his ear close to the speakers. When you sit 7-10 ft away, this noise becomes a lot less bothersome, especially when music is playing.

With the transducers just next to my ears when listening through a headphone, I find the unwanted bits an unpleasant distraction. Having said that, I believe a lot also depends on one's music preference and the quality of the vinyl. On the first point, if one listens exclusively to rock or heavy metal, as an example, I don't think the occasional clicks and pops would matter at all, as most times, the music itself would have masked out the noise. On the second point, the quality of the pressing does vary a lot, from my experience. I have a large collection of the original Reference Recording LPs issued in the 80's (all bought new back then). These were supposed to be top quality, audiophile products in those days (they still are,I believe). Yet, a few of them have so much surface noise that I find listening to them through headphones a big burden, despite the great music and stellar performance by the artists. I have tried to clean them with the Keith Monk record cleaner (reputed to the one of the best), and the latest ultrasound cleaner, but to no avail. I just can't get rid of the clicks and pops, so I believe these are probably not due to dirt entrapped in the grooves, but to faults inherited in the pressing.

 

[336881]

Not that headphones accentuate the unwanted bits, just that in speaker listening, the unwanted bits become less noticeable, simply because you are further away from the transducers. Highly efficient horn loaded speakers, when driven by low power single-ended triode tube amps, will emit some kind of hum or hiss, to varying degrees. This unwanted 'noise' is prominent when one places his ear close to the speakers. When you sit 7-10 ft away, this noise becomes a lot less bothersome, especially when music is playing.

With the transducers just next to my ears when listening through a headphone, I find the unwanted bits an unpleasant distraction. Having said that, I believe a lot also depends on one's music preference and the quality of the vinyl. On the first point, if one listens exclusively to rock or heavy metal, as an example, I don't think the occasional clicks and pops would matter at all, as most times, the music itself would have masked out the noise. On the second point, the quality of the pressing does vary a lot, from my experience. I have a large collection of the original Reference Recording LPs issued in the 80's (all bought new back then). These were supposed to be top quality, audiophile products in those days (they still are,I believe). Yet, a few of them have so much surface noise that I find listening to them through headphones a big burden, despite the great music and stellar performance by the artists. I have tried to clean them with the Keith Monk record cleaner (reputed to the one of the best), and the latest ultrasound cleaner, but to no avail. I just can't get rid of the clicks and pops, so I believe these are probably not due to dirt entrapped in the grooves, but to faults inherited in the pressing.

I'm glad you brought up pressings cause that is a very big deal. Avoid the modern re-pressings at all costs. They sound terrible and still are not cheap at $25-35 a record. You will get better results off of 320kbps through an odac. NOT KIDDING. You also will not get more than 2 bits for them once you rip the plastic seal off which I think speaks volumes about their quality.

 

[336881]

So someone on another audio site turned me onto MFSL gold cd's. They are not cheap and can be as much as a nice copy on vinyl but man do they sound awesome. If I was stuck with just headphones I would def. look at this for a medium of play. TT's are nice and a headphone is instrumental for certain area's of tracking and aligning but for casual listening speakers for records and MFSL gold cd's for headphones by a long shot. There are not too many hip-hop and electronic cd's so I think I will keep my tidal but man if there were bye bye tidal and dac.

 

[mulveling]

Not that headphones accentuate the unwanted bits, just that in speaker listening, the unwanted bits become less noticeable, simply because you are further away from the transducers. Highly efficient horn loaded speakers, when driven by low power single-ended triode tube amps, will emit some kind of hum or hiss, to varying degrees. This unwanted 'noise' is prominent when one places his ear close to the speakers. When you sit 7-10 ft away, this noise becomes a lot less bothersome, especially when music is playing.

With the transducers just next to my ears when listening through a headphone, I find the unwanted bits an unpleasant distraction. Having said that, I believe a lot also depends on one's music preference and the quality of the vinyl. On the first point, if one listens exclusively to rock or heavy metal, as an example, I don't think the occasional clicks and pops would matter at all, as most times, the music itself would have masked out the noise. On the second point, the quality of the pressing does vary a lot, from my experience. I have a large collection of the original Reference Recording LPs issued in the 80's (all bought new back then). These were supposed to be top quality, audiophile products in those days (they still are,I believe). Yet, a few of them have so much surface noise that I find listening to them through headphones a big burden, despite the great music and stellar performance by the artists. I have tried to clean them with the Keith Monk record cleaner (reputed to the one of the best), and the latest ultrasound cleaner, but to no avail. I just can't get rid of the clicks and pops, so I believe these are probably not due to dirt entrapped in the grooves, but to faults inherited in the pressing.

I see why it will be an issue for some -- what with headphones clustering everything much closer together than speakers -- personally I don't have an issue with the vinyl noise on headphones. That said, I have a relatively high tolerance for vinyl surface noise, in general.

I don't think the physical closeness has as much of an impact on noise perception as many other factors. Obviously it's important to have transducers and amps that don't emphasize bits of the spectrum that exacerbate this noise, and there's also a significant variance in how certain cartridges and stylus profiles can minimize noise (plus record cleaning and stylus hygiene, yada yada).

 

[336881]

I see why it will be an issue for some -- what with headphones clustering everything much closer together than speakers -- personally I don't have an issue with the vinyl noise on headphones. That said, I have a relatively high tolerance for vinyl surface noise, in general.

I don't think the physical closeness has as much of an impact on noise perception as many other factors. Obviously it's important to have transducers and amps that don't emphasize bits of the spectrum that exacerbate this noise, and there's also a significant variance in how certain cartridges and stylus profiles can minimize noise (plus record cleaning and stylus hygiene, yada yada).

Your right. While pops and ticks will become more noticeable the closer you move to the speaker it is not the end all to surface noise. However this seems to be a fairly experienced group and I can't believe it comes down to basic stuff like record cleaning and stylus hygiene. For me it comes down to something that most dj's and collectors of older records would know about but might mistake it for pops and ticks. That is record wear and crackle.

Even the best records will wear over time. They last a really long time but talk to any dj who played the same record over and over again and they will tell you they start to sound fuzzy after a couple thousand plays no matter how much you clean the record or stylus. While I think this is more a dj thing I could see some hardcore casual listeners wearing out older hifi records over time.

Crackle is the black plague of records. This can be really easily confused for pops and ticks and the only difference is that a pop is more blunt and sudden where crackle sort of creeps in and lasts for several seconds to minutes and it literally sounds like rice krispies right after you pored milk on them. My dad moved his record collection to the basement in the late 80's when cd's became all the rage. In that humid environment a microscopic mold "crackle" settled in and you can't get rid of it no matter the rcm. Do not store your records in a humid environment, like a basement, and expect them to sound like new 25 years latter even if you do not play them. If your system is in a basement finish it and use a dehumidifier.

 

[432789]

I have the Sennheiser HE60 electrostatic headphones and I use them with a turntable. the first time I played them together I was shocked, amazed and also frustrated at how much better it was than my DAC setup. Its disappointing that there is so little information about such set-ups online. Yes, some pops and clicks were noticeable at first but since I increased my tracking force a bit and started to play my records wet (sprayed with distilled water) this is totally a non issue. Music really sounds like music now, beautiful emotions are triggered almost every time I listen. the tone, the details and the dynamics pull you in very easily. the downside is when the record comes to the end and your back on your listening chair again yearning for more.

 

[Amictus]

What's a good sounding turntable that doesn't require a Phd in engineering to set up properly?

A turntable set up by the dealer!

 

[Pavioni]

But what's the fun in that? Nobody is more OCD than us vinyl guys - full moon with a dropping barometer ya gotta lower your VTF by .05 gram!