Tube Amp Vs Solid State (My Questions)
Aug 29, 2003 at 7:06 PM Thread Starter Post #1 of 20

marios_mar

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I wanted to know in particular what are the advantages of the tube amp besides the warmth.

1.Is this warmth increase of detail and resolution as in the vinyl sound or is it loss of detail as in smoothening?

2.What else does a tube amp do that solid state doesn't.

3.And which one is better for what kind of music according to your opinion? Is a tube good for rock?

4.And also how much sensitive speakers do you need to have in order to use a tube amp of low wattage and get the same volume as in a normal SS amp?

5.How much can a DIY kit for a tube amp cost besides this that someone brought up lately tha is about 140 dollars incl. a multimeter and screwdrivers.

6.Some people mention the combo of tube preamp to get warm midrange and solid state amp to drive normal speakers and get rich bass. At the preamplification stage where tube is used shouldnt the deep rich bass be already "cut off" ? What's the point of this combination. The tube amp alters the sound information in its own way. Then what does the SS amp add? Is there a good explanation for this?

7.This last question is about preamplification in general. Pre amplification for phono is a neccessity to hear sound. What else is pre amplification for and what are the advantages and disadvantages.

Well I know my post is like 7 posts but if you feel like answering my questions and discussing just go ahead. If you like you dont have answers or dont want to talk about everything you can answer only to some questions by theri number!

see ya
 
Aug 29, 2003 at 7:26 PM Post #2 of 20
1. it's all relative. depends what tube and what ss amp you're talking about.

2. it's all relative. depends what tube and what ss amp you're talking about.

3. it's all relative. depends what tube and what ss amp you're talking about.

4. it's all relative. depends what tube and what ss amp you're talking about.

5. i have no idea.

6. i have no idea.

7. i'm kind of curious myself.
 
Aug 29, 2003 at 7:39 PM Post #3 of 20
I once had a tube preamp and never a tube power amp. So I can't give any reliable comments on your questions. But I can answer point 7: The only purpose of preamps other than for the phono stage is volume control. The whole amplification stage is senseless and a big waste of money. Funny, but true.

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Aug 29, 2003 at 8:21 PM Post #5 of 20
I don't think you can generalize here between tubes and solid state. It's like saying all black guys are good at sports. Not all tube amplifiers even sound warm.

Tubes exhibit specific harmonic distortion (second or third order?) that give them a characteristic smoothness that doesn't necessarily affect the tonal balance (but often does on cheaper amps).

However, it can be said that solid state has tighter control over the bass...I think this is because it is more difficult to design a tube amp that has this characteristic. Comments?

So as USC goose already said, questions 1-4 vary depending on the amp / pre-amp used.

For#6: I think you are saying that it is futile to combine the 2 components since the pre-amp will pass the negative aspects of tube amplification to the solid state amplifier, which in turn just amplifier those negative traits.

I think this is partially true for any component, however a tube preamp will add liquidity and maybe warmth, but again it depends on the tube pre-amp. Note that this a good way to put tubes into your system without the need for output transformers. Plus, solid state amps are generally cheaper to maintain.

7: The potentiometer (or volume pot) plus input selection is the basis of the pre-amp. That's really all it is. Plus a gain stage. It is necessary if you don't have an integrated amplifier, unless you want to listen at max volume all the time.

What you have to do is to listen to some tube equipment. A vacuum tube is a type of transistor, it just does it in a different manner than a silicon chip / solid state circuit. And sometimes the end result is the similar, sometimes it is different.
 
Aug 29, 2003 at 8:56 PM Post #6 of 20
1. Compared to the best ss amps I always find any additional distortion as produced by tubes amps to result in a (slight) loss in detail. However, the best tube amps certainly produce more detail than a mediocre SS amp.

2. It gets warm and glows and increases your electricity bill! :)

3. That's truly a matter of taste.

4. > 90dB / Watt is generally recommended. Depends on the amp/speaker and size of room. Any specific combination should be tried before you buy.

5. There's a very wide range in prices (and sound quality!)

6. A preamplifier drives a high load impedance (power amplifier, > 10 kOhm). A power amplifier has to drive a low load impedance (loudspeakers, < 8 Ohm). Tube power amps tend to have a large output impedance and thereby damping factor (a measure of electronic control over the loudspeakers) is rather low (resoluting in ill-defined lower bass). SS amps have a much better damping factor. The output impedance of a tube preamp hardly effects sound quality. It truly does make sense as such.

7. A preamplifier not only allows you to control sound level but also to select sources. It also generally has more power to drive high capacitive (long) cables. In principle a single passive potentiometer can do the job, but the resistance of this poti will result in an effective increase of the output impedance of the source as seen by the power amplifier. Depending on how the input stage of the power amp is made (RC-filter) this can result in severe losses of the higher frequencies.

I hope this helps a little bit.

Cheers,

Jan
 
Aug 29, 2003 at 9:09 PM Post #7 of 20
Well so far your answers have been very helpful for me to understand about the basics. I was thinking about building a phono stage pre amp for my thorens and I dont know whether its better to build a tubed or SS. I wouldn't want to loose any bass especially since I listen to rock music too. But I listen to other genres too.
What do you suggest? Tube or SS preamp. I use senn HD 580's with my DIY Cmoy amp and I intend to build a META42 too. Maybe a tubed too. If i have time and money!
 
Aug 30, 2003 at 1:23 AM Post #8 of 20
I wanted to know in particular what are the advantages of the tube amp besides the warmth.

1.Is this warmth increase of detail and resolution as in the vinyl sound or is it loss of detail as in smoothening?

In my experience, there can be a slight softening of the highest frequencies and lowest frequencies depending on the type of tubes and the circuit design. But in exchange for this I find that the tube preamplifiers and tube integrated amplifiers and receivers I have used do a much better job of passing ambient information that is part of the original recording through to the listener than most solid state gear.

2.What else does a tube amp do that solid state doesn't.
Run hotter, except for Class A solid state amplifiers that can run hot too.
Have a lower damping factor (see my response to #4)
Not sound obviously bad when driven into moderate clipping
Pass recorded ambient detail from the original recording session through the amplifier circuits and to the speakers or headphones, an ultimately to your ears.
Reproduce the sound of string instruments and woodwinds, and the human voice in a way that very few solid state amplifiers can match.
3.And which one is better for what kind of music according to your opinion? Is a tube good for rock?
If your are using headphones, and they sound good when listening to rock music, their sound can be maximized with the right amplifier. Sometimes this is a solid state amp, sometimes tube. Tube amplifiers tend to work well with high impedance headphones like the Senn HD-580/600. But you really need to audition, or if you can't do that at least get another reviewer's opinion, to determine whether a particular amplifier will work well with a given model of headphone.

4.And also how much sensitive speakers do you need to have in order to use a tube amp of low wattage and get the same volume as in a normal SS amp?

A watt is a watt and a decibel is a decibel. If you normally use a 100 watt amplifier with a particular model of speaker that has a rated sensitivity of 87db, in your listening room, then only another amplifier of close to the same power rating will play the speakers at the same level as before. However, increasing the sensitivity of your speakers by 3db, by switching to a different model or type of speaker, will reduce the power requirement by 1/2, for the same acoustic output level. So a 50 watt amplifier will play as loud with speakers with a 90db rated sensitivity as with the less efficient speakers in the same room.

Another factor is clipping distortion in the amplifier. Both tube and solid state amplifiers clip the output signal when their output stages can no longer amplify the signal to a higher level. When a solid state design clips, unless the clipping is very brief, the sound will begin to sound distorted and quickly become unlistenable. When a tube amplifier clips, the output signal starts to become compressed, but without the odd-order harmonic distortion products that are typical of a solid state design. So when you push a solid state amplifier beyond its rated output, it quickly begins to sound bad even to an untrained ear. When you push a tube amplifier hard, it is not as obvious that the amplifier is clipping the output unless you are monitoring things on an oscilloscope. Depending on the circumstances, you can push a tube amp 3db, 6db, or even more beyond its rated output and not hear anything amiss. In this way, a 50 watt tube amplifier can appear to play as loud or louder than a 100 watt solid state design. When an amplifier is clipping the peak music signal levels, the average output level is usually 10-12db below this level. So a 100 watt amplifier driven into clipping is really only delivering an average of less than 10 watts on music. With test tone signals, this example would not apply.

5.How much can a DIY kit for a tube amp cost besides this that someone brought up lately tha is about 140 dollars incl. a multimeter and screwdrivers.

How much or how little? A used tube amplifier or receiver can be a good way to start. The Dynaco SCA-35 is a small tube integrated design that is rated at 17 watts per channel. It has a phono preamplifier and uses 12AX7 tubes for the phono preamp circuit, and (2) 7199 driver tubes and (4) EL84 output power tubes These amplifiers were originally sold as kits as well as factory assembled. If you watch eBay, these come along fairly often and rarely cost more than $175 for a nice working example.
One advantage of the SCA-35 is that it is very compact for a tube amplifier. There is a mounting location on the rear of this amplifier for a heaphone jack to be installed.

Another good choice is the Fisher 400 receiver. Much larger than the Dynaco, it features a FM stereo tuner and a phono preamp and inputs for a tape deck and a spare auxilliary high level input. These usually sell for slightly more than $200, and will usually require some parts to be replaced, but the Fisher 400 is great sounding headphone amplifier as well as a tube receiver. The Fisher 400 has a headphone jack.

6.Some people mention the combo of tube preamp to get warm midrange and solid state amp to drive normal speakers and get rich bass. At the preamplification stage where tube is used shouldnt the deep rich bass be already "cut off" ? What's the point of this combination. The tube amp alters the sound information in its own way. Then what does the SS amp add? Is there a good explanation for this?

The motion of a speaker driver, especially the woofer driver, needs to be controlled by the amplifier due to the energy generated by the voice coil as it moves inside the magnet structure, and the mass of the moving speaker. The property of an amplifier that works to control this back EMF is called damping factor. Tube power amplifiers have lower damping factors than solid state power amplifiers. A typical tube amplifier damping factor could be as low as 10-15, while damping factors for solid state amplifiers are typically several times higher. If an amplifier does not have a high enough damping factor, the motion of the bass driver will be poorly controlled and the bass will not sound clean, but muddy. Some speakers don't work particularly well with tube amplifiers for this reason.

One work around is to use a solid state amplifier, to get higher power and also the needed damping factor to control the woofer, and use a tube preamp because of the way that some people believe the tube preamplifier can bring out the subtle tonal qualities of the music, especially in the all important midrange. Many times, singers sound more natural when the music is passed through a tube preamplifier or amplifier. Also, in my experience string instruments (violin, viola, bass) and woodwind instruments ( oboe, clarinet) sound much more natural when heard though a good tube system than with most solid state gear.

One potential problem with pairing a tube preamplifier with a solid state amplifier is that depending on the circuit design of the tube preamplifier, the output impedance of the preamplifier can be much higher than the input impedance of the typical modern solid state amplifier. So a preamp with an output impedance of 500,000 ohms (the vintage Dynaco PAS preamplifier for example) is not going to mate well with a power amplifier unless the amplifier has an input impedance in the same range as the output impedance of the preamplifier. Even 100,000 ohms is really too low to be a good match with the 500,000 ohm preamp and most modern solid state amplifiers have input impedances of under 50,000 ohms. This potential for impedance mismatch between the amplifier and preamplifier are eliminated if you use an integrated amplifier or receiver.

7.This last question is about preamplification in general. Pre amplification for phono is a neccessity to hear sound. What else is pre amplification for and what are the advantages and disadvantages.

Like a lot if things it depends. Except for a true low level signal as from a moving coil or moving magnet phono cartridge, a preamplifier is unnecessary to drive a power amplifier. (Note:the phono stage preamplifier is also applying the inverse of the RIAA phono response curve that was used when the LP record was mastered. Without this inverse filter, the sound would be shrill and with hardly any bass.)

I have a CD player than has variable outputs as well as fixed outputs. I have tried various listening experiments to see if the CD player could drive my power amplifier directly. In this case, the resulting sound was a bit cleaner than when the signal was passed through my preamplifer, but at the expense of losing the balance control, tone controls, and being able to switch to another source such as LP radio. Some amplifiers have their own input level controls, so you can directly connect a component such as CD to the amplifier even if the CD does not have variable outputs. Depending on how far you place your source from the amplifier(s), the signal level may not be able to be run through a long cable without dropping off or picking up noise in the cable.
A better name for a preamplifier would be control amplifier, since most of the function and benefit is in switching and patching the signals between the various sources and the main amplifier.
 
Aug 31, 2003 at 3:36 PM Post #10 of 20
Quote:

Originally posted by markl
Also, one thing to consider with tube amps is that you will want to add NOS (new old stock) tubes to your amp (new tubes are sadly not as good as many older tubes). These NOS tubes are getting extremely expensive, and they don't last forever, you have to keep shelling out for more tubes as they wear out. NOS stocks are drying up rapidly. Reliable dealers who will sell you what you paid for that have what you want can be hard to find. There are shady characters out there. You have to spend A LOT of time researching tubes so you know what to buy, this may be fun for you, may be hell. In the future you may have a KILLER tube amp, but no more good tubes available to put in it.

I love the tube sound, but it comes with a lot of baggage. You have been warned!
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The baggage associated with tubes amps is sometimes seriously overstated. In about ten or fifteen years, the electrolytic caps in any amp, tube or solid state, are going to need replacement (depending mainly on the quality of the originals). In many tube amps, the tubes will last that long also (mainly depends on how hard they are driven, and which tube is being used). It's easier to change a tube than a capacitor. Trust me in this
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Tubes are not as hard to come by as some people think. As near as I can tell, I've got enough tubes to keep my amps going for about five or six hundred years (if they'll last that long on the shelf). I suspect that other key parts, including me, will fail before I run out of them.

EDIT: I have yet to have a tube burn out in an amp, but there's always a first time.
 
Aug 31, 2003 at 3:44 PM Post #11 of 20
He he, ya but Hirsch you are a true audio die-hard, a grizzled veteran.
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Maybe hunting down tubes and tube info is nothing to some folks, maybe even fun, but not everyone wants to get involved at that level. To me, getting tube gear implies a *little* extra commitment, a lot of extra time and money, a lot of tweaking/fiddling/AB-ing. I kind of enjoy that aspect of audio, but my pateience does have limits. Anyway, I think that tube afficianados can be very enthusiastic about tubes (and justifiably so), but I always like to point out the less considered other side of tubes for consideration. Rock on!
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Sep 3, 2003 at 12:14 AM Post #12 of 20
Quote:

Originally posted by markl
a lot of extra time and money, a lot of tweaking/fiddling/AB-ing.


I am always amazed by the lots of extra time and tweaking misconceptions that go along with owning tubes. You are right about that aspect being a bennie though. I mean, how many SS preamps have you seen that you can fine tune the sound by switching from some recent vintage Sovtek 6992's to some NOS Amperex 6DJ8's? Guess it took me 5 minutes to take the cover off the top of the preamp, 2 minutes to swap out 4 tubes and 5 minutes to get it set back up and running and SHAZAM!, what a nice difference in the sound. (Okay I am exaggerating, it was probably on 6-8 minutes total.) It really is not that much time and new designs have become much more user friendly. Now if you want to spend hours chasing down some tube you can certainly do that, but it ain't necessary nor a requirement.

But if all you want to do is turn it on and off, then SS may be the way to go. For me, it is toobes baby. But then I just like to fiddle around a little bit too.

Regardless, Enjoy the Music...
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Sep 3, 2003 at 12:49 AM Post #13 of 20
Quote:

Originally posted by Hirsch
As near as I can tell, I've got enough tubes to keep my amps going for about five or six hundred years (if they'll last that long on the shelf).


How's the audio museum?
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How do you know when it's end of life for caps?
 
Sep 3, 2003 at 7:21 AM Post #15 of 20
Quote:

Originally posted by D-EJ915
do tube amps handle low impedences worse or better than solid state amps do?...


Tube amp clipping is less hard on ears might be a myth.

Once I drove WATT 6 ( nominal 4 ohms )with Jota single ended monobloc. Oy,
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it wans't pretty when WATTs impedance dips below 2 ohm and shoots up to 24 ohms. ( tube amps don't cope well with a wild impedance swing like this either )

Interesting thing was that the bass stayed in tact. All the power was going to woofers whilest tweeters were proably getting less than 1 watt.

I shold be greatful for not losing hearing or tweeters.
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I guess you could have 2 ohm taps on tube amps to drive tough load, but I'd suspect distortion would be even worse.
 

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