Toroid transformers, good/bad?
Jul 1, 2007 at 1:40 AM Thread Starter Post #1 of 10

AudioCats

Headphoneus Supremus
Joined
Feb 25, 2007
Posts
3,726
Likes
264
Location
CO, USA
I have always thought the toroid trans are better than the square laminated ones, but it seems all the good tube amps are still using all square trans.......

Are toroid trans bad for audio circuit or something?

Thanks for any info
 
Jul 1, 2007 at 2:31 AM Post #2 of 10
Oh oh... Pandora's box open alert.
evil_smiley.gif
 
Jul 1, 2007 at 2:58 AM Post #3 of 10
The question is "good or bad for what?", toroids & EI cores (those square ones you refer to) each have their own characteristics, advantages, and disadvantages, so as usual it comes down to what is most important for you in your given design or project. I will have to speak in some generalities here since there's millions of ways to wind transformers and make the various tradeoffs.

A toroid is more efficient, and for a given power rating it will be smaller and lighter. It will have lower magnetic leakage and throw out less electromagnetic interference. On the downside, toroids are a high bandwidth device, which is great if they're being used as audio signal transformers but not so good when it's a power transformer. This would not be a problem if we had perfectly clean AC power, but as we all know that rarely is the case, most AC these days is heavily contaminated and quite noisy. With a toroid, that noise is going to pass right through the transformer and into the rest of the circuitry, which is a really bad thing especially with tubes.

There are ways to reduce noise transmission, instead of winding the primary & secondaries on top of each other as is done in most toroids, we can place the windings on separate ends of the toroid so they don't touch, and if we really want to we can gap the core while we're at it. This will make the transformer less efficient though.

With an EI core there's often difficulty getting sufficient bandwidth in audio signal use, but for power use that's a good thing. The transformer will naturally roll-off and filter out a fair amount of the high frequency noise & grunge in the power lines. We can help this along some more by using a split bobbin, where the windings are side by side instead of on top of each other, and then gap the core for good measure. Efficiency isn't going to be good so the transfomer will have to be large and it will run rather warm. It's also going to throw EMI all over the place so you're going to have to shield the transformer with mu-metal or steel, in some cases several layers of shielding may be required.

Neither one of them is truly "better" in my opinion, rather, they each have their own tradeoffs and it's up to the designer to decide which works better in a given application.
 
Jul 1, 2007 at 4:04 AM Post #5 of 10
there are a few parafeed tube amps that use smallish toroidal transformers for the outputs.

here is a design made up by a head-fi'er.

railroad tie looking amp

i have heard that above amp, and the output impedance mathching system is SWEET. the general PSU design is also impressive, expecically the circuit to lock the amp off if the power fails. i REGULARLY break amps in by running them 24/7 with a CD playing. if the power goes out, the cd stops (and dosnt repeat...) and the amp just sits in the on state doing nothing. nothing good comes from that.

as long as the design dosnt pump DC through them, you can use toroid's in the circuit. some of their disadvantages for the PSU can come back as an advantage in the output, namely WIDE bandwidth.
 
Jul 1, 2007 at 4:09 AM Post #6 of 10
Uh, Blue Hawaii? And, I don't need to show it's stinking tranny for it to be cool.
 
Jul 1, 2007 at 7:43 AM Post #7 of 10
Quote:

Originally Posted by Roam /img/forum/go_quote.gif
The question is "good or bad for what?", toroids & EI cores (those square ones you refer to) each have their own characteristics, advantages, and disadvantages, so as usual it comes down to what is most important for you in your given design or project.


Good info!
 
Jul 1, 2007 at 3:54 PM Post #8 of 10
Thanks for the info guys!!
icon10.gif


so the Toroids are no good for power (letting in noise), no good if there is DC components (output trans for tube amps to strip off the music signal), but can be great for AC signal transfering (signal isolation, impedance matching etc)...... Right?

How do I know if a certain toroid is good (for signal)? is there a requirement on core material? winding techniques? wire type? etc?
blink.gif
 
Jul 1, 2007 at 4:14 PM Post #9 of 10
Quote:

Originally Posted by AudioCats /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Thanks for the info guys!!
icon10.gif


so the Toroids are no good for power (letting in noise),



Nope. Roam gave the answer for that:
Quote:

Originally Posted by Roam
A toroid is more efficient, and for a given power rating it will be smaller and lighter. It will have lower magnetic leakage and throw out less electromagnetic interference.


A Toroid is pretty much the only alternative for a quiet power supply with what we do - if it is located anywhere within proximity of the amplifier circuit, as in the same box.

That said, Amb's quote is true, too:
Quote:

Originally Posted by amb /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Oh oh... Pandora's box open alert.
evil_smiley.gif



This discussion is very similar to the "Are Black Gates really that good?" They cost more, etc. Ultimately, add a foot or two distance from the amplifier circuit and toroids lose their advantage. They are perhaps more stable than a typical split bobbin, but with the regulator circuits we use around here, that's probably not an advantage many of us would see. IHMO, YMMV X10
 
Jul 1, 2007 at 5:07 PM Post #10 of 10
The most important difference only really matters when you can see it.
torroid because it looks cool
square if yours is bigger

And just why are you afraid of Pandora?
smily_headphones1.gif


Seriously, it's all about boring engineering tradeoffs between cost, size, complexity, and, of course, good looks.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top