[Yoga]

Ello ello.
 
Getting into audio production and would appreciate some advice on the best neutral setup.
 
Currently thinking...
 
DAC: Yggdrasil
 
Cans: LCD-X
 
Amp: Phonitor 2
 
Any suggestions/comments?
 
Edit: AKG K-812 also on the radar!

 

[Zoom25]

LCD-X is a good choice. I have owned and used the LCD-2 and LCD-3 in the past with good results, although I much prefer my HD 800 for neutrality and overall sound. I get better bass translation from the HD 800.

Look at professional DACs like dangerous convert-2 instead of yggy. With hi-fi DACs I've found some to have poor latency when running logic/ableton.

I myself am driving the HD 800 out of dangerous source and it beats all the combination I've tried with the LCD-2/3.also, the HD 800 is a lot more comfortable for long term sessions.

 

[Yoga]

LCD-X is a good choice. I have owned and used the LCD-2 and LCD-3 in the past with good results, although I much prefer my HD 800 for neutrality and overall sound. I get better bass translation from the HD 800.

Look at professional DACs like dangerous convert-2 instead of yggy. With hi-fi DACs I've found some to have poor latency when running logic/ableton.

I myself am driving the HD 800 out of dangerous source and it beats all the combination I've tried with the LCD-2/3.also, the HD 800 is a lot more comfortable for long term sessions.

I did wonder how the HD800 would perform, I assumed the bass would be a bit light, but then again, as long as it has depth and accuracy that's all that matters. I may wait for the new HD800s.
 
Googling the Convert-2 as we speak.
 
Thanks for the advice, much appreciated.

 

[Yoga]

If I can fit them, I'll get Event Opals for monitors. Small study though, they may be too much unfortunately.

 

[Yoga]

Goodness me, that Dangerous converter is getting some serious praise in the pro audio world.
 

Allen Farmelo: Over the 25 years that I've been using digital pro-audio equipment, I've really struggled to like it. I don't hate it, but the sound has always tired me out. And at the risk of sounding like an analog diehard (which I'm not), digital audio always feels just slightly boring to me. So, when there's a change for the better, no matter how small, I get excited.  The sad truth about digital recording systems, however, is that the best-sounding stuff has been developed by and for audiophiles at astronomical price-points, not for us recordmakers and our real-world budgets. Sit down with a $15,000 high-end stereo DAC, and you get the feeling that so much more is possible on the pro-audio side. Some mastering converters are outstanding, and some DSD conversion approaches true neutrality and realism, but for the most part, multichannel conversion for pro-audio purposes is held back to hit a price-point. 

I'm happy to say, however, that Dangerous Music has delivered multichannel digital-to-analog conversion that's beautiful to listen to and never tires me out. Let me preface my review here by letting you, dear reader, know that I have listened to everything I possibly could over the years, including external clocks, 10M atomic clocks, DSD recorders, re-clocking systems, double-re-clocking systems, esoteric mastering converters, audiophile dream-machines — all hooked up together in countless combinations in an attempt to put together a digital tracking and playback system that was truly satisfying. When I plugged in the Dangerous Music Convert-8, I finally sat back and thought that digital pro-audio might have finally arrived. After hours and hours, and then days — and now weeks — of listening to the same material, it still sounds beautiful. 

 
It's only £2K!
 
It will be very interesting to hear how this compares to the Lumin, Analog and TotalDAC.
 
Ordered - thanks @Zoom25 that's a fantastic recommendation.
 
The Ableton Push 2 is on it's way to me, anything else that is 'core' that's worth looking at?
 
Small keyboard recommendation?
 
Consider your brains picked :¬)

 

[Zoom25]

 
I did wonder how the HD800 would perform, I assumed the bass would be a bit light, but then again, as long as it has depth and accuracy that's all that matters. I may wait for the new HD800s.
 
Googling the Convert-2 as we speak.
 
Thanks for the advice, much appreciated.

HD 800 will give you the closest bass slam that resembles speakers. It's bass light in comparison to Denon's or Fostex which I also have. Although after spending a few minutes you get adjusted really quickly. The kind of bass movement you get out of 8+ inch drivers is the closest I've gotten with HD 800. The Audeze's bass feels more like a vacuum.

 

[Zoom25]

  Goodness me, that Dangerous converter is getting some serious praise in the pro audio world.
 
 
It's only £2K!
 
It will be very interesting to hear how this compares to the Lumin, Analog and TotalDAC.
 
Ordered - thanks @Zoom25 that's a fantastic recommendation.
 
The Ableton Push 2 is on it's way to me, anything else that is 'core' that's worth looking at?
 
Small keyboard recommendation?
 
Consider your brains picked :¬)

Yes, good job on the Convert-2 and congrats. You clearly have money, although I'm not sure if you want to actually consider making music as a hobby or seriously. Well, regardless of the situation, if you could have monitors in your room, it'd be far better suited than headphones. I say ditch the Opals.
 
If you could get the Convert-2 and use that to drive something like ATC SCM 25 or SCM 50 active pro, that'd be your end game. A true end game. IMO these monitors are a full two, three leagues ahead of any headphones out there, including Audeze and Sennheiser. They'll easily beat the Genelec 8000 series and the Opals. The ATCs are by far the most neutral and transparent things I've ever tried. They are a sealed box, 3-way design.
 
If you can find a good deal on them by contacting dealers, then go for that. IMO the ATCs are far better for both mixing/mastering as well as casual listening. I myself am saving up for ATCs. If you have the money and don't want to mess around, get the ATCs. You're set for life.

 

[Yoga]

 
HD 800 will give you the closest bass slam that resembles speakers. It's bass light in comparison to Denon's or Fostex which I also have. Although after spending a few minutes you get adjusted really quickly. The kind of bass movement you get out of 8+ inch drivers is the closest I've gotten with HD 800. The Audeze's bass feels more like a vacuum.

Thanks again. The Fostex 900 are on my radar now also.
 
One last question, I've sourced the Convert-2 locally, but the seller (who seem quite honest after a long chat) is pointing me to the Apogee Symphony unit.
 
It's cheaper (and also discounted £400) so I doubt they're making much profit on it, making me think it's a genuine recommendation. I don't think they've heard the C2 however.
 
http://sxpro.co.uk/apogee-symphony-2x6
 
Any experience with it, or comparisons to the Convert?

 

[Zoom25]

Another thing I would recommend looking into eventually is power. If you're hooking up all your monitors, audio gear, and speakers in the same circuit, you might want to consider something that can regulate voltage and keep current on tap for peaks. Look at Furman P-1800 AR, P-1800 R, and P-2400. Bryston also makes BIT-15 and BIT-20. These definitely give you that extra step and make sure your system sounds good throughout the entire day (regardless of the load on the power grid).

 

[Zoom25]

 
Thanks again. The Fostex 900 are on my radar now also.
 
One last question, I've sourced the Convert-2 locally, but the seller (who seem quite honest after a long chat) is pointing me to the Apogee Symphony unit.
 
It's cheaper (and also discounted £400) so I doubt they're making much profit on it, making me think it's a genuine recommendation. I don't think they've heard the C2 however.
 
http://sxpro.co.uk/apogee-symphony-2x6
 
Any experience with it, or comparisons to the Convert?

Honestly, I wouldn't recommend the TH-900 for production. They are okay for listening, but that's about it. Kind of fatiguing in the long run. Also, based on the people I've talked to so far have preferred the Convert-2 over the Symphony.

 

[Yoga]

  Yes, good job on the Convert-2 and congrats. You clearly have money, although I'm not sure if you want to actually consider making music as a hobby or seriously. Well, regardless of the situation, if you could have monitors in your room, it'd be far better suited than headphones. I say ditch the Opals.
 
If you could get the Convert-2 and use that to drive something like ATC SCM 25 or SCM 50 active pro, that'd be your end game. A true end game. IMO these monitors are a full two, three leagues ahead of any headphones out there, including Audeze and Sennheiser. They'll easily beat the Genelec 8000 series and the Opals. The ATCs are by far the most neutral and transparent things I've ever tried. They are a sealed box, 3-way design.
 
If you can find a good deal on them by contacting dealers, then go for that. IMO the ATCs are far better for both mixing/mastering as well as casual listening. I myself am saving up for ATCs. If you have the money and don't want to mess around, get the ATCs. You're set for life.

 
Everything I've earned money from started as a hobby, and I've always had a big pull towards music production so I'm simply following an impulse. If it does turn into a paid gig, amazing, if it doesn't, no harm, I'l be enjoying the journey. Besides,a great rig in the study means great quality music playback. Win-win.
 
£2K isn't much for a top DAC (and the rest!), considering how much people pay in the hi-fi industry.
 
I have the ATC SCM25A Pros on my shortlist (right at the top actually). By far the most expensive but from when I've read they're top of the line. Buy one, no upgrade ever needed. I like stuff like that. The poor man pays twice, as my dad always said :¬)
 
The only potential problem is my study, it's small; 7' x 9' (w x d). Would the ATC be overkill, or do they scale down as well as up?

 

[Yoga]

  Another thing I would recommend looking into eventually is power. If you're hooking up all your monitors, audio gear, and speakers in the same circuit, you might want to consider something that can regulate voltage and keep current on tap for peaks. Look at Furman P-1800 AR, P-1800 R, and P-2400. Bryston also makes BIT-15 and BIT-20. These definitely give you that extra step and make sure your system sounds good throughout the entire day (regardless of the load on the power grid).

 
I'm UK based, those all seem to be US. Loads of audiophile mains filters and conditioners, but it's incredibly hard to know which are actually any good.
 

  Honestly, I wouldn't recommend the TH-900 for production. They are okay for listening, but that's about it. Kind of fatiguing in the long run. Also, based on the people I've talked to so far have preferred the Convert-2 over the Symphony.

 
Both counts duly noted, thanks again :¬)

 

[Zoom25]

   
Everything I've earned money from started as a hobby, and I've always had a big pull towards music production so I'm simply following an impulse. If it does turn into a paid gig, amazing, if it doesn't, no harm, I'l be enjoying the journey. Besides,a great rig in the study means great quality music playback. Win-win.
 
£2K isn't much for a top DAC (and the rest!), considering how much people pay in the hi-fi industry.
 
I have the ATC SCM25A Pros on my shortlist (right at the top actually). By far the most expensive but from when I've read they're top of the line. Buy one, no upgrade ever needed. I like stuff like that. The poor man pays twice, as my dad always said :¬)
 
The only potential problem is my study, it's small; 7' x 9' (w x d). Would the ATC be overkill, or do they scale down as well as up?

Okay, perfect. Now that I understand your expectations and approach (which is the exact same as mine)...get the ATC SCM 25 whenever you can afford it. As of the past few years, I've stopped buying mid-fi stuff or anything that I plan on selling on in a few months until I can get something better. Nowadays, I just wait a year and pick up an end game component one step at a time. My approach is to buy stuff that I intend to keep indefinitely (Your dad and mine are both right in this case). I guarantee the ATCs are exactly that. Perfect for both serious and fun work.
 
I've used ATC's in mid sized rooms before with great performance. I've never ever had them sound bad or piercing like some lower end models when positioned badly, but yes, the ATCs do scale very well with better acoustics. Despite the disclaimer, I'd still consider a model from ATC. These guys build some of the absolute best amps out there for their speaker. As a result, some of the best crossovers I've ever heard.

 

[Zoom25]

   
I'm UK based, those all seem to be US. Loads of audiophile mains filters and conditioners, but it's incredibly hard to know which are actually any good.
 

 
Ah my bad, yeah just realized that you're in the UK. I haven't tried audiophile power components so I wouldn't know. Even for DACs, I've stopped using hifi gear as they are almost always overpriced. The professional studio brands don't mess around.
 
For power, I wouldn't worry about it for now. Although, if you ever think that you are noticing inconsistent performance from your rig at different times throughout the day, then look into it for sure (even when controlling for mood or fatigue level).

 

[Music Alchemist]

If you aren't going to equalize the frequency response of your headphones (which you should do with any of them if you want the most accurate FR) and want true neutrality, then Audeze, Fostex, and AKG aren't even on the radar. STAX and Sennheiser are better choices.
 
In the spoiler box I will share some measurements that illustrate what I am talking about.
 

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!

The images shown below are InnerFidelity graphs with compensation curves superimposed. Ignore the incorrect labels in the top right corner. The green line is the diffuse-field flat speaker curve (which is the established standard for neutrality that has been followed for a long time in the headphone industry) and the black line is the Harman curve (which is a newer curve that is an average of what sound people prefer, or something to that effect). Look at the raw grey measurements and how they follow the green line. Also note that planar magnetic headphones follow the green line very closely in the bass.

First I will show you measurements for your own headphones, followed by my neutral reference, to give you better context.

Abyss AB-1266

I heard something was wrong with the Abyss unit Tyll measured, so perhaps it normally measures better than this.

STAX SR-207


This is the most neutral headphone I've seen. You could even say that it's more neutral than the much more expensive SR-009! With the SR-507 pads, that bass hump is resolved. (click)

STAX SR-009


Sennheiser HD 800


Audeze LCD-X


Note how many of the upper frequencies are recessed.

Now that you have familiarized yourself with the way these measurements work, you can compare these headphones to others...

http://www.innerfidelity.com/headphone-data-sheet-downloads
http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/FostexTH900.pdf
http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/AKGK812SN001130.pdf

 
All that being said, I want to emphasize again that you can equalize any headphone to be much more neutral than its stock tuning. And most studios use cheapo headphones anyway (relying on speakers most of the time), so whichever you choose, you should get great results, if you do things right. Best of luck!