[garbulky]

2nd tier equipment that can get one close to top audiophile sound.
server 3500-7000
dac 2000-5000
amp 2000-4500
HP 2000
cables, power, etc 3000
Total 10-18 G and this is not top tier if $ means anything.
Now one can cut out or back on every step to get back to 1 G and I'm sure its ok, just quit head fi, don't test or go to meets.

Dang up to 10,000 on cables on a server to drive a $2000 headphone?! That's a lot for little improvement imo.

I suggest - cheap computer $300.
$60 on a dedicated digital transport. (Musiland Digital Times)
And all the other stuff is fine but spend more on the headphones or speakers.

 

[Whazzzup]

Dang up to 10,000 on cables on a server to drive a $2000 headphone?! That's a lot for little improvement imo.

I suggest - cheap computer $300.
$60 on a dedicated digital transport. (Musiland Digital Times)
And all the other stuff is fine but spend more on the headphones or speakers.

where did i say 10,000 on cables? oh i get it if you went with a flagship server and highest end cables.. Mid tier you should get away with 5 G.
i have tested 2000-8000 HP you can be fine at 2 g you don't need to get top tier. The server is the best thing, lots of improvement. point being grand nope

 

[garbulky]

where did i say 10,000 on cables? oh i get it if you went with a flagship server and highest end cables.. Mid tier you should get away with 5 G.
i have tested 2000-8000 HP you can be fine at 2 g you don't need to get top tier. The server is the best thing, lots of improvement. point being grand nope

Yeah but your putting a lot of emphasis on a digital transport versus the DAC. Just a surprising choice imo.

 

[Whazzzup]

not surprising once you here one in your chain...

 

[richard51]

Easy 1000$ guide. Get the HD650 some amp/dac you like and never listen to anything better/more expensive and you are golden. It's not that equipment is expensive, at least in my case I wanted better than what I had mostly .Yes I did gebecause of the vastly misleading head-fi posts where every new gadget was vastly better then the previous one.Yes i did get there 5 years later but looking back I can't really say I have any extra enjoyment than when I was listening to crappy mp3 players when they first came out. Can I go back? No. Do I wish I just settled with something basic? Maybe but it's too late now that I heard and owned so much good gear.

Thanks for your very interesting post testimony.... I want this thread to be an answer to newcomers about the way to take in their audio journey...I was exactly like you 7 years ago, me too i upgraded with hype product(sometimes so bad that i will not name brand)But after reading and thinking a lot and experimenting simple things, i discover that except for the necessity to buy good products in the first place(for me the solution was TOTL products of the past for speakers+ headphone+amplifier with a contemporary dac)the most upgrading factor was not a newer product but the cleaning and treatment of vibrations and EMI.... Trust me the real source of your system is not the dac or the turntable or the digital transport, it is the central electrical panel, and the electrical grid of your room and house, the key to audio bliss is the lowering of the house electrical grid noise floor where your system is located....Sure a 10,000 dollars amplifier is not equal generally to a 1000 dollars one sound quality wise, even if the electrical grid is treated ,but anyone that does not treat his electrical grid first will never listen to his own products at their optimal level and it is necessary to implement simple solutions for that before an upgrade for a mature audio choice....

Finally i can assure you that if you go in this direction with already good products and links, you will not crave so much for upgrade without end exceeding your bank account limit.... Music is music when you listen to it .... But there exist for sure system that dwarf any other one in term of sound quality. This thread is not for a very little few that can afford that, they dont read this thread anyway , this thread is about methods, and treatment,of choice's product at an affordable level that APPROXIMATE, more than many would expect possible, top level audiophile performance and this by virtue of this ruthless law of diminishing returns, simple....

The moment when you live this audiophile experience is unmistakable,it is the first moment you are finished off with looking to an upgrade,not because you think any upgrade is impossible but because the next upgrade have less sex-appeal suddenly for you now, you listen music now, not your system anymore, thinking no more:"is it really good?" Because you know it is good now... The obsession to upgrade is the unmistakable sign that an audio system is not in mature equilibrium mode of operation, perhaps because mismatch synergy, probably because the pervasive noise in the non treated electrical grid or in each link of the audio system; anything that is not satisfying and are irritating will disturb you from the music.... This is my experience .... I thank you very much for your illuminating remark...

 

[richard51]

2nd tier equipment that can get one close to top audiophile sound.
server 3500-7000
dac 2000-5000
amp 2000-4500
HP 2000
cables, power, etc 3000
Total 10-18 G and this is not top tier if $ means anything.
Now one can cut out or back on every step to get back to 1 G and I'm sure its ok, just quit head fi, don't test or go to meets.

Forget the title of this thread, anyone in his right mind know that without limit of money, anyone can dwarf any system, and it is easy for you to say " forget head-fi and go to meets" and after saying that drawing a ladder quality/price...

This thread is not only about the symbolic cut-off of 1000 it is also about methods that will put your already good system of "nevermind the price" at his optimal capacity....The thread is not about the trivial objective fact that money can buy the best,it is not about marketting argument about which is the absolute best,with everything ranked in a money ladder, it is about the subjective experience of music trough a relatively Hi-Fi system, created with choice's product and intelligent methods to improve all system... I thank you very much for your remark,that permit me to precise what i want to speak about... i thank you for your interesting observation and disturbing one indeed

By the way i regret that you cannot listen to my 100 bucks value dac(paid 20 bucks)that is seated in my completely treated system from the electrical central cable at the exterior of the house to the internal central cable that go to the central electrical panel and there passing all links to my headphones, i regret that i will never see your surprise realizing what the sound of a cheap moneywise but smart minimalistic design dac can produce... Oh yes there is better than my dac, anyone know that, but at which price? and better at which degree and at which level? When you listen suddenly to all cymbals decay, when you have holographic depth imaging, with natural musical timbre for each instrument, you smile, and do not think, with 2000 thousand dollars, or perhaps more, there is perhaps a better dac that will not be a sidegrade only, but a real upgrade ... Like many laws the law of diminishing returns is a ruthless law indeed,not necessary to go to meets to know that ... I cannot go to any meets anyway...I meet so to speak my own brain with my ears and meet my ears with my brain, splendid meets indeed and very informative, so informative that i think i can crash some levels of your quality/price theoretic ladder...

 

[richard51]

Yeah but your putting a lot of emphasis on a digital transport versus the DAC. Just a surprising choice imo.

My most important discovery in my audiophile journey is that the true source of your system is not the dac, the turntable or your digital transport by any means... It is the central electrical grid of your house.... what determine the optimal performance of an audio system,at any price, is the general noise floor of the entire system,not only the noise floor of each and one links separetely... If this is not taken into account, no system, nevermind his price will give his optimal performance in your house or in a meet....No audio company will advise the buyer of his many thousand bucks product that their product as good as it is,is not perfect to reach heaven out of the box, that you must also clean it, and treat it, and treat all your system indeed to reach his optimal level...who will buy their product? It is known to all that almost everybody want an out of the box ready to go perfect product in every sense of the word ...

 

[richard51]

Different people have different needs and exigencies, some student listen to music in a small room with headphones, a man with big money may look for floor standing speakers, the price will not be the same.... But in my own experience beginning with a relatively low amount (1000 bucks cut-off) i think that anybody can affords a top audiophile experience, modulo cleaning the electrical grid, eliminating vibrations, and buying TOTL product of the past or used new one with careful choice....I know that there is better than my own system without going to any meet...But i know that my already good system sound now nowhere near like it was right of his box without any cleaning and treatment of any kind...

If anyone say that i dont know what i speak about with this audiophile experience around 1000 bucks, i will say that this person dont know what we speak about here , because anyone, me included, knows that THERE IS ALWAYS BETTER,that goes without saying, it is trivial matter that goes without saying, but if you read this entire thread you will stumble on a little drawing of mine, a very bad drawing indeed, that correlate objective and subjective bias with the diminishing returns zone, ALL THIS THREAD is a reflexion about these 2 zones, not about the tautology that audiophile experience begins ONLY at 50 thousand dollars, or 500 thousands, or better 1 million dollars and that nothing less is worth mentionning...

We are all here to think together about affordable audiophile experience of music, each of this words i use count....I would add the word"top" to this phrase, if wanting to be understand, i say that when you have at the end,finally, the real experience of music first time trough a very good system, of course you dont think at all cost to buy a better one the day after... It is way better to improve this system you own now at his optimal level and then you will be able to make a MATURE upgrade in the future.... That is my situation now, the idea of this thread is an effect of that precise experience of mine, thinking about new comers and wanting to give some hope to their quest, without absolutely speaking about the last hype +big money, that is listened to only in meets...

 

[336881]

You can do a schiitload of damage with a vintage sansui integrated. Just about all of their integrated amps deserve to be in an $5k setup let alone $1k.

If you are patient and know about hifishark.com, hifido and zen market.jp you can pick one up for just a few hundred.

Vintage Japan speakers would be my second suggestion but it is very hard to find a domestic deal unless you live in Japan and shipping from Japan is very expensive. I feel very blessed to find my own speakers domestically. My particular speakers may not ever come up for sale again domestically.

 

[richard51]

Yes indeed, not only for sound quality,Sansui amplifier of the AU series is a life deal in audio.... Sound for Sound quality, you can pay for better, probably in the many,many thousands dollars range, if not more, for sure i speak about upgrading really the Sansui, not only a sidegrade.... But sound is not the only reason for their cult love; some Sansui had so many flexibility that NO ACTUAL AMPLIFIER AT ANY PRICE offer that flexibility today.... NOT ONE the reason is simple: it will be very too costly....For example point to me a very good actual amp. with a totl preamp function separable of the power amp section, with filtering function, tone control of the higher order capable to accomodate the particular impedance of 2 set of turntable etc etc... Good luck finding one,nevermind the amount of money you want to throw...I apologize for my rant about Sansui, but i am a dead zombie lover of these 2 amplifiers i own... One day I try to upgrade the AU 7700 with a more totl Sansui the AU-X701 but the AU 7700 is already so good that it was finally only a sidegrade...But there is always better and the TOTL are easy to find if you can throw 10,000 dollars for a REAL upgrade BUT a real upgrade to their sound only , forget all flexibility and functions, no more company offer this type of audio product anymore with this plenty of functions at any cost...

Your advise is very wise indeed and this exactly the road i take at a crossroad point in my audio journey, looking everywhere with patience, now i owns 2 Sansui and will not sell one...( I think erasing these last posts will give a better chance to a newcomer to buy one at a better price...) Why reveal all secret ? Anyway if someone STUDY, make his homework, there is between 1970 and 1980 plenty of less known extraordinary products...But often you must add the cost of maintenance and replacing parts, and that alone is costly...But always possible... My best to you, and thanks...

I almost forget to say that the Sansui you own is indeed one of the best of the best, but buying one at a cheap price is near impossible now...I am not envious though, the 2 mine are near your own and at 500 dollars maintenance included for the 2, i smile...If one is out of service i will listen the other one ... It is possible for a newcomer to buy one of low wattage for low cost and having audiophile sound indeed... For example the Sansui AU 222 tube like sound will be TOTL for peanuts, or the Sansui AU 217 less tubelike more modern sound but in the same level...I am afraid that the secret is out!

https://www.hifiengine.com/manual_library/sansui/au-222.shtml

https://www.hifiengine.com/manual_library/sansui/au-217.shtml

You can do a schiitload of damage with a vintage sansui integrated. Just about all of their integrated amps deserve to be in an $5k setup let alone $1k.

If you are patient and know about hifishark.com, hifido and zen market.jp you can pick one up for just a few hundred.

Vintage Japan speakers would be my second suggestion but it is very hard to find a domestic deal unless you live in Japan and shipping from Japan is very expensive. I feel very blessed to find my own speakers domestically. My particular speakers may not ever come up for sale again domestically.

 

[336881]

3 C-2301's came up recently on hifido and yahoo/zenmarket. I got the best condition one by quite a ways for the second most expensive price. One of the few times I can say that the seller had way better condition and better photos than hifido. Really some of the best photo's ever of that pre was taken by the gentleman that sold me my C-2301. After shipping I paid $2300 and have zero qualms about putting it up against any $5k pre made today.

Your AU-7700 is the real deal. Serious, serious stuff despite the modest price tag.

 

[richard51]

3 C-2301's came up recently on hifido and yahoo/zenmarket. I got the best condition one by quite a ways for the second most expensive price. One of the few times I can say that the seller had way better condition and better photos than hifido. Really some of the best photo's ever of that pre was taken by the gentleman that sold me my C-2301. After shipping I paid $2300 and have zero qualms about putting it up against any $5k pre made today.

Your AU-7700 is the real deal. Serious, serious stuff despite the modest price tag.

I am into nearfield listening, and the AU 7700 had a loudness button that boost the highs and lows just right and it is pure bliss, at the lowest volume all is there...
I must say the sound is detailed, tubelike, organic, holographic, and i cannot fault it, and how can i say, you cannot miss this sound when you listen to it the first time, it is like listening music and no more the sound and forgetting any upgrading possibility, why upgrading the wife you love?...It is like sex with a woman that love you, no relation whatsoever with any other woman , even with Helen of Troye... Listening a Sansui is listening an amplifier that is in love with the human ears at an era when engineers use their ears more than the measure apparatus and think that the audiophile experience without any compromise is for the mass... Sansui is the only company that makes a high end tube amplifier first and after 25 years of work replicate it in solid state with near exactly the same sound, a great feat indeed! I think that i went too far.... Please do speak no more about sansui, i am a bit obsessed
But the subject of this thread is how to improve relatively lost cost but very good products to another level....

 

[garbulky]

Let me add a fantastic vintage speaker I just heard. You can get this one for super cheap - probably because it's super ugly. The mighty Dynaco A25 speaker. Over 40 years old.

But MAN this is a nice speaker. Full sound, wide soundstage, VERY natural sound, a good amount of height in the soundstage. Sound just appeared naturally in the soundstage. It was paired with a $2000 fully balanced Yamaha AS-2000 amp and it was not outclassed. Really very good sound.
Which btw looked like this -

If you ever get a chance to listen to it, you are going to be stunned. It will compete with modern speakers. We compared it to a Polk bookshelf and it stomped all over it. Imo it was quite a bit better and clearer than the KEF LS50 though the LS50 is able to go louder. I think it is in the same class as a Thiel 1.6 though it sounds different.

 

[richard51]

The vintage dynaco are affordable in my 1000 bucks limit.... The yamaha i dont think so... oups not vintage and very pricey.... But interesting ideas indeed.... Thanks

 

[garbulky]

The vintage dynaco are affordable in my 1000 bucks limit.... The yamaha i dont think so... oups not vintage and very pricey.... But interesting ideas indeed.... Thanks

No there are better amps than the Yamaha that I would pick (and cheaper!). I was just saying that the speakers were that good. I imagine they should sound quite good with capable amps like say the Emotiva basx a-100 $200.
The dynacos sell on ebay for about $100 -200. My friend got it for $15! Lol. At either of those prices the unit is a real steal imo.