[Davesrose]

1. Why call them "slots" if they're tracks?
2. Nope, Dolby has: "A track in a session can be an audio object" - A "track in a session" is a channel!
3. So you can do a screen grab of "the Dolby atmos mixing software you saw with the demo series" and I'm the one "obfuscating" the mastering and mixing stages of sound production? You state you "fully understand" the mastering stage but you clearly don't! The term "mastering" in film is shorthand for "print-mastering" and is entirely different from the "mastering" process for music (which again is shorthand but it's shorthand for "pre-mastering"). In film sound, ALL positional (and other audio) information is created during mixing, print-mastering is simply the act of "printing" that mix. In the case of Atmos, there are various "packaging options" for printing the mix precisely because an Atmos mix is independent of tracks/channels!
4. Yes I have! The reason I have is because in professional usage the terms "tracks", "channels", "audio objects" and "slots" are interchangeable but can have different specific meanings depending on context. For the consumer, the term "slots" is perhaps the most appropriate because it avoids the confusion with "channels", "tracks" and speakers. An Atmos mix can comprise up to 128 "slots" which are independent (unrelated) from channels/tracks/speakers.
5. I am refuting your assertions that are based on your misunderstanding of the use of the terms "tracks" and "channels"!



If an "edgelord" is someone who refutes false assertions, then yes, I'm just trying to be an edgelord. Not sure why you would be curious about why I'm "posting stuff like this"? Isn't refuting false assertions one of the main purposes of this sub-forum?

G

I see that you're incapable of being able to form coherent paragraphs and to be able to carry an open dialogue towards another member. This is my last response to you about this subject (also for the benefit of others). I used the term "slot" for your benefit because YOU are so hung up on the term "track"....which time and time again, I have quoted Dolby saying Atmos is comprised of 128 TRACKS. That it's not 128 "channels", and that a track and channel is not the same thing in this context (unlike your continued assertions). Your response has been to claim credentials and say you once mixed in Atmos: which IMO does not make one an authority on Atmos. I have experience with 3D animation and video production software (and I’m comfortable enough to not have to emphasize claimed experience). With my experience in media, I can say that my authoring software does have source files that comprises "tracks" of video, audio, even a particular movement cycle of a 3D node object. For all of these media, a track is in a layer in the timeline, and an audio channel is what's being mapped to an audio speaker channel. We also can have different instances of a composition being nested in another. They act independently (and if you have to, you can go back and edit a previous stage of project development that gets updated with other compositions). I’m sure that film audio production is the same in which the “1000 channels" you've obfuscated with is a different stage that's NOT part of the Atmos stage. In the demo, I’ve seen a possibility of 128 tracks within that project session. From my own professional experience Dolby's terminology of 128 tracks makes sense to me. Sorry it offends you, but I'll continue to use it!

 

[71 dB]

I don't have experience for (crossfeed) VSTs. I How do they work? I use headphone adapters to do the crossfeed because that way every source is crossfed the same way, no matter if it's computer, CD, SACD, TV or fm radio. I don't know how VST can be used to crossfeed TV sound. My TV sound goes from my TV to my CD player (toslink) which operates as a DAC and then from CD player to my amp (RCA) and then from my amp B-speakers to my headphone adapter. There is no way to use a VST. I can only use VST (effect) with a DAW so I don't understand how people manage to use VST with all sources… …mind you I am not that good with computers.

I have Vox player that has 3 crossfeed options, but I use computer rarely to listen to music. I am an old fashioned CD player guy into physical format. So, I have nothing against VST crossfeed. I just don't know anything about them...

 

[bigshot]

yes, I'm just trying to be an edgelord.

Glad we have that solved!

Headphones with crossfeed sound more like speakers that headphones without crossfeed.

I'm conducting a poll on this subject... Do you own a good speaker system? If so, can you tell me a little bit about your setup? Is it multichannel? What aspects of crossfeed do you think contribute to sounding more like speakers? What aspects are different? Do you think that sound sources immediately in front of your ears sound the same as ones on the other side of the room?

Feel free to start a new thread for this if you'd like.

By the way, I have a VR headset and have heard virtual headphone surround. Unless I turn my head around I can't tell back from front, and by that time the back is in the front... well not the front because it's still a straight line through my head. The distance cues are very primitive- more than an order of magnitude less compared to the sound if I play my speaker system and get up and walk around the room. And the sound of my speaker system is more than an order of magnitude less than walking around a real nightclub with a live band playing. I imagine that someday there will be progress to make sound reproduction even more natural, but at this point, it's far off. The closest we can get to natural sound is multichannel speaker systems, but I wouldn't even describe that as "natural" sounding. It just has natural spatiality created by the natural space of the room. There are a lot of variables that go into something sounding natural- more than we can control.

I once spoke to a sound engineer who was visiting a local carnival with his kid. He was standing at the top of the "chute" with the carnival games in front of him, and at the end of the aisle was a merry-go-round. People were milling around and carnival barkers were calling out to them. He closed his eyes and listened... and tried to think of how he could reproduce that experience through recording and playback. He started to think about how many channels it would take and how the speakers would have to be laid out... But then he listened more carefully and heard how the sound subtly changed as breezes blew through, and how the sound of the carousel reflected off the structures of the games, and how the people's voices massed and shifted as they turned towards or away from him. He realized that it would be totally impossible to completely reproduce all that. He could only do an approximation.

Recording is an approximation of reality. There are inevitable compromises. Multichannel can offer one level of enhancement to that. Crossfeed another level a full notch down. Stereo a notch below that. Mono below that... And that is just considering directionality and spatiality... There's also other factors like frequency response, distortion, dynamics, timing, amplitude, etc... Creating a "natural" sound just isn't possible. It isn't even the goal of recording. Speakers can do things with directionality and spatiality that headphones just can't. Headphones are inexpensive and convenient and private in a way that speakers can't match. If you want convenience and "in your head" sound, you use cans. if you want an element of spatiality and directionality, you use a multichannel speaker setup. That's just the way it is. You can't make a raven into a writing desk, nor would you want to.

I don't have experience for (crossfeed) VSTs. I How do they work? I use headphone adapters to do the crossfeed because that way every source is crossfed the same way, no matter if it's computer, CD, SACD, TV or fm radio. I don't know how VST can be used to crossfeed TV sound.

Instead of running the signal through a dedicated sound processing device, you run the digital out through a computer running a sound app. There are various plugins to the app that can be put in line between the input and output. Usually VSTs are much more sophisticated and flexible than dedicated hardware processing. Generally, you put the VST as the last step in the chain and use the computer's DAC to output it to a simple amp. That way all the switching between sources is upstream.

 

[Steve999]

I had never heard of an edgelord before! I had to look it up! At first I was googling for "edgesword" because my memory had failed me. No one in this history of humanity has ever used the word "edgesword"! Oh sure, you've got double-edged swords, or two sworded edges, or candles burned at both ends, or both candles burned at the end, or whatever, but no edgeswords! I thought to myself, @bigshot has made up a new word!

But alas, no, it was "edgelord," which I had never heard of either. And I looked it up and so now I know what it means. I don't think I'd be a very good edgelord. Once in a while no matter how serious things get I have to make a joke out of it, and then I offend someone, etc. That's as edgelordy as I get.

As far as this proposed survey is concerned:

1) I have a sort of nice speaker set up. It is just expensive enough so I love it but I get no bragging rights.
2) It's two towers, two satellites, a center channel speaker, and two subwoofers (yes, I like bass).
3) Crossfeed in headphones makes headphones sound more like speakers because some of the left channel goes to the right channel and some of the right channel goes to the left channel, so your ears hear stuff from both sides, but in different proportions, sort of like in real life, maybe with some special fx or FR manipulation thrown in, but it's not as complicated as and doesn't in the end sound close to real life or loudspeakers in a room. I thought that was all kind of obvious but 76 pages down the line it seems like we have not settled the question. Of course actual headphones sound nothing like actual speakers. I like both. I like crossfeed. All other things being equal, I prefer speakers. If someone has different preferences, finarino!

Now notice, no matter how you answer this survey, you may possibly be attacked by an edgelord of one ilk or another. If you like crossfeed then it means your speakers are bad. If you don't like crossfeed, it means you are a spatial ignoramus. I don't quite get the logic from points A to points B but there it is. You can't win! Edgelords to the left of us, edgelords to the right! And somewhere there are 128 somethings involved, and it's all very personal. I guess I'm pretty shallow. (If anyone thinks I am trying to call them an edgelord, and especially if they are an actual edgelord, I am not calling you an edgelord, I am just trying to be funny.)

@71 dB, for something much simpler than a VST, if you have Windows and you have not done so already, you can install Foobar2000 and the Meier variable crossfeed plugin for Foobar. Maybe you already know this. But if not, it will get your feet wet. It might be two or three hours of puzzling over randomly documented freeware installation the first time around. I've tried VSTs and they generally are more trouble than they are worth for what I want. I also use a Behringer DEQ2496 for variable crossfeeed by my bedside, and a Behringer Monitor2USB for continuously variable crossfeed from my computer. You can look those up in Amazon. Those are more hardware-based solutions. I do not have expectations of audio nirvana from crossfeed. Then again, I never have expectations of audio nirvana. I have episodes of music nirvana. It can happen on good gear, bad gear, through speakers, through headphones, with crossfeed, without crossfeed, live--imagine! All else being equal, though, for me, music nirvana on a good surround hi-fi setup or through a good set of headphones with crossfeed is the bomb, and sometimes a live performance is even better.

If I want no-compromise perfect fidelity I will go press a key on my piano or pluck a string on my guitar. Whoopee.

 

[castleofargh]

I don't have experience for (crossfeed) VSTs. I How do they work? I use headphone adapters to do the crossfeed because that way every source is crossfed the same way, no matter if it's computer, CD, SACD, TV or fm radio. I don't know how VST can be used to crossfeed TV sound. My TV sound goes from my TV to my CD player (toslink) which operates as a DAC and then from CD player to my amp (RCA) and then from my amp B-speakers to my headphone adapter. There is no way to use a VST. I can only use VST (effect) with a DAW so I don't understand how people manage to use VST with all sources… …mind you I am not that good with computers.

I have Vox player that has 3 crossfeed options, but I use computer rarely to listen to music. I am an old fashioned CD player guy into physical format. So, I have nothing against VST crossfeed. I just don't know anything about them...

computers have become a source of music and without a doubt, the ultimate way to manage it. many people rip their CDs the day they get them and rarely open the the box again. and that's if they still purchase CDs.
for crossfeed specifically on the computer, you have VSTs or other forms of components that you can integrate into your audio player(depends on the player!!!!!!), @ironmine has posted many examples in this topic, from basic crossfeed to more advanced solutions that come closer to the spirit of trying to fine tune based on some HRTF notion, or even add some room effects where you can set too many parameters to count. depending on how they're set, they can easily feel like some lame surround effect from 20 years ago with way too much and unrealistic reverb, but as for anything, learning how to set it for ourselves is key of a good subjective result.
but using a VST in the audio player limits the effect to that audio player, I personally use a "virtual cable", that will reroute all the sounds of the computer(or just the ones I want), into a VST host, which is really a big funny sandbox where you can chain all the effect you want in any way you happen to enjoy. @ironmine has showed many screenshots of such host.
one last option for "crossfeed", if to have the 4 impulses of some HRTF reference at a specific angle(left and right ear for speaker on the left, and left and right ear for speaker on the right, so 4 impulses), and you can then have those used for convolution on the stereo signal and then mixed with so called "true stereo"process. that stuff can be applied system wide on the computer through virtual cables, or with something like Equalizer APO(free) that will offer true stereo. the hurdle here being that you need to procure the impulses, you could use some generic stuff, or even make your own super basic stuff to have what you get with your analog crossfeed. but you could also invest in a pair of cheap binaural microphones(the type you insert in your ears), or try to DIY something with small cheap capsules(last time I tried soldering something that small, I destroyed everything, so that's not for me, at least not with my current soldering gear). anyway, recording sweeps, then creating the impulses for convolution, that's work, and not all easy solutions for that as free(maybe you could ask here if somebody would be willing to do it for you once you have the sweeps). the benefits would be that you'd end up with the music changed the way you ears(well, the mics at your ears) get it in your room with your speakers. and you'll have to take my word for it on this, it is more realistic than generic crossfeed. but obviously it's quite a bother and it requires custom measurements, which in itself can be a good enough reason to use typical crossfeed instead and appreciate the convenience. different people have different priorities.
as for the issue of wanting to use other devices (TV, CD player,etc), I'm confident that there must exist some solutions from Dirac, miniDSP or whoever else, it has to be. I remember reading about this one a while back https://www.minidsp.com/products/dsp-headphone-amp/ha-dsp. no idea if it's any good or what exactly is the crossfeed aspect and how well it can be set. but if this exists, other solutions probably exist too. I've used a computer as source of everything for almost 20 years, so I'm really not the guy who can help for that specific matter, but it's a big forum, there are probably others who wondered about doing this and more, who found or made their own solution with a raspberry PI or whatever, just like you did with an analog circuit. obviously if you only plan to replicate what your circuit does, then there is no need and no point in looking for a digital alternative.

 

[gregorio]

I’m sure that film audio production is the same in which the “1000 channels" you've obfuscated with is a different stage that's NOT part of the Atmos stage.

Of course you're sure. What really happens is that we mix all the ~1,000 tracks together to create a mix and THEN (apparently in the mastering stage?) we pan/position all the individual sounds within that mix using Dolby Armos, and you're sure of this because of your experience with 3D animation and video software.

Glad we have that solved!

Yep, it's all solved:

I'm an edgelord.
Adding more speakers/channels gives more options for locating sounds within a soundfield.
Orchestras recorded with 3 mics in 3.0 is much better than orchestras recorded in stereo using many mics.
We apply Dolby Atmos after we've already completed a film mix in 9.1.4 (or whatever) using 128 tracks.
Crossfeed on headphones is always objectively better for everyone (except apparently idiots).
And, it's "solved" that this is the "Complete BS" forum! Hope you're happy now?

G

 

[bigshot]

DEE-LIGHTED!

 

[71 dB]

I'm a mac user. Sometimes I use Spotify to explore music. I also make my own music on my mac and for that I write my own nyquist-plugins for Audacity where I process the "raw" tracks I export from GarageBand. If I listen to a single music track on my mac I just find the file, right click and choose "Quick Look."

 

[bigshot]

I don't use Audacity. Is it able to monitor using real time plugins? That is how you do signal processing on the fly.

 

[71 dB]

1. I don't use Audacity.
2. Is it able to monitor using real time plugins?
3. That is how you do signal processing on the fly.

1. Well, what do you use?
2. No.
3. Ok, but monitor using real time plugins is not possible.

 

[jason41987]

i have some schematics for some pretty simple crossfeed circuits.. i may get a small perfboard and some bits to test drive some of the variations of the cross-feed circuit and see if i find something i like that can replace the surround sound audio i have now.. if i can, i'll be building the crossfeed (with a toggle switch) into an amp.. i was originally thinking objective2, but i am looking at some balanced options, and possibly tubes for such a project, and that'll probably get paired with an ODAC... if i cannot get the desired crossfeed sound that i want with circuitry, then i'll scrap the ODAC idea and buy another 7.1 surround sound adapter (which does the crossfeed thing) and use that as the DAC in a DAC/AMP combo

 

[WoodyLuvr]

I personally use a "virtual cable", that will reroute all the sounds of the computer(or just the ones I want), into a VST host, which is really a big funny sandbox where you can chain all the effect you want in any way you happen to enjoy. @ironmine has showed many screenshots of such host

What specific "crossfeed" oriented VST plugin do you typically use in your chain these days?

I am still experimenting with my Meier Crossfeed Foobar Plugin (along with replay gain) and still remain baffled by it... battling personal bias; poor hearing; unrepeatable listening sessions where I believe I have figured it out; etc.

 

[castleofargh]

What specific "crossfeed" oriented VST plugin do you typically use in your chain these days?

I am still experimenting with my Meier Crossfeed Foobar Plugin (along with replay gain) and still remain baffled by it... battling personal bias; poor hearing; unrepeatable listening sessions where I believe I have figured it out; etc.

I don't use one exactly, I'm relying on impulse responses and convolution to apply EQ/delay form the impulses, and then mix the signal for a result that's basically crossfeed with a very customized EQ. I would easily say that it works better for me than a more standard Xfeed, but the secret sauce(the impulses) being entirely dependent on your own HRTF, that makes finding something right quite challenging if you don't have binaural microphones and the patience to learn what to do with them. @Joe Bloggs has shared something he made, some adore it, some don't, as it should be. and @jaakkopasanen even ... made"?" and shared a little app(I still haven't tried, but it's on my to do list, one day I swear I will) to do deconvolution and all that.

to simplify, it's a step toward actual HRTF measurements, but usually limited to stereo(not that it has to be) and fixed speaker position(no head tracking). if well done, it should give something very close to what an objectively ideal Xfeed should be for a given listener.


when I was using some Xfeed VSTs, I would sit in front of my speakers and try to set the VST so that the full left or full right instruments would feel like coming from the general direction of the speaker. if set that way I felt ok over time, then all was good, and if I felt weird, or on rare occasion felt it was even more tiring than using nothing, then that was my signal that something was really done wrong in the VST or in my settings. but it's hard to be very confident about the settings as the brain has a mind of its own and tends to try and move stuff back to full 180° panning(at least it does in my case, probably because of decades of conditioning that clearly associated massive panning with headphone use, or maybe there is some other reason I don't understand? IDK).

 

[BobG55]

Error

 

[ForSerious]

I tried to read everything, but it got too long and not always in directions I am interested in. There's some really good information in here. Thanks guys.
To the original question: I didn't care much about music until the moment I put on a pair of headphones from the dollar store. The range on them was as bad as it gets. What hooked me was how the sound seemed to be inside my head. It was like I entered a world made entirely of music.
In later years, I made my own 4 speaker surround sound system. The way I had it setup, it sounded more like headphones than anything else. Apparently I love hearing instruments and vocals all around me.
My final answer: Crossfeed reduces everything I enjoy about music, so I don't and won't use it.

I find things like clipping, dynamic compression, cars passing and central air systems to be way more distracting than my eardrums vibrating from sounds isolated to only one channel.