To crossfeed or not to crossfeed? That is the question...
Jan 6, 2018 at 4:09 PM Post #556 of 2,146
Just trying to keep the discussion balanced, less polarized, and factual, as it has the tendency to escape the bounds of reality fairly often.

Yes, the usefulness of content has intersected the baseline and gone negative.

Fun? Well as much fun as this is, I cant wait to take a break from this for a root canal I've been looking forward to...
 
Jan 6, 2018 at 5:19 PM Post #557 of 2,146
No, you need to examine the LF pattern of a few cardioid mics.

You are right. Typically cardioids have -5 dB response from side at low frequencies. That's not that excessive. Sorry about the confusion.
 
Jan 6, 2018 at 5:24 PM Post #558 of 2,146
Again, incorrect. The image location of sound between speakers does not depend on ITD alone, or even primarily. If it did the ubiquitous "pan pot" wouldn't pan.

I mean narrow compared to some other mic set ups. I wasn't clear enough. Sorry.
 
Jan 6, 2018 at 7:47 PM Post #559 of 2,146
Fun? Well as much fun as this is, I cant wait to take a break from this for a root canal I've been looking forward to...

If that doesn't work, you can always go over to the "I have some panels where should I put them?" thread and chat about absorption and diffusion. I've absorbed as much of that as I can take myself. I'm sitting out these dances until the uptempo song starts.
 
Jan 7, 2018 at 3:10 AM Post #560 of 2,146
You have just defined anyone who doesn't share your opinion as "ignorant".

Again.

Your arrogance is offensive, even if someone partially agrees.

Yes, ignorant on one thing. I am ignorant about so many things I can't even count and I humbly admit it.

Arrogance! To think that those that have a career in making commercial recordings are not as "enlightened" as you, a rank amateur! Just incredible!

Please, don't be dramatic. People have their perspective and way of doing things and it hardly ever covers all possible knowledge. I have put a lot of effort on spatiality, but that doesn't make me more "enlightened" than others, just "enlightened" on a different subject. Recording engineers have tons of knowledge and experience I don't have.
 
Jan 7, 2018 at 6:48 AM Post #561 of 2,146
1. Spatial distortion never disappears, unless you remove ALL the spatial information and that would sound pretty ridiculous. Maybe it just seems to disappear to you personally because you are unaware of it/spatially ignorant?

2. That's clearly complete nonsense. You somehow don't seem to realise that being a sound engineer is an extremely competitive career or even that the two requisites which determine their success is the quality of their work and their efficiency. Neither of which they could achieve without excellent judgement of human hearing perception.

2a. You mean that's how you've managed to convince yourself that you know more than anyone else.

2b. And this is why this is all "clearly complete nonsense"! You're making a correlation where there is none. Is an F1 car mechanic a better driver than a professional F1 driver because he has a far better understanding of how the car works? What about a fighter plane designer being a better pilot than a fighter pilot, a tennis racket maker, a designer of surgical equipment, a piano manufacturer, was Stradivarius a legendary violinist? The best mixes are made by the best sound engineers/artists (typically using professional software), not by those who design/code that software. Isn't this obvious, do you really believe what you're saying or just making it up to justify your belief?

3. You've made it abundantly clear that you have a preference for the "unnatural, broken spatially" reproduction of HPs with crossfeed. I generally prefer the "unnatural, broken spatially" reproduction of HPs without crossfeed and better still, the "unnatural, broken spatially" reproduction of speakers in a good acoustic. So what all this comes down to is how each of us personally prefers their "unnatural, broken spatially" reproduction. What I object to is you coming out with all kinds of nonsense to try and contradict the basic facts and prove that your reproduction preference is in fact not "unnatural, broken spatially", simply because you're apparently unable to hear it and then calling everyone who can hear it and/or do know the basic facts "spatially ignorant"! Please, enough already!

G
1. Spatial distortion as I define it disappears when spatial information gets scaled within human spatial hearing. Evolutionary prosess has shaped our hearing to decode the sounds coming from our environment. We hear these sound around us in everyday life. Our spatial hearing expects certain kind of correlation between left and right ear.

2. Competitive career for sure, but nobody knows/understands everything.

2a. No, not more than anyone else but "pretty well" as I said.

2b. Both the mechanic and the driver are needed in F1 and the more they communicate with each other, the better.

3. Clearly your definitions for unnatural broken spatiality differs from mine.
 
Jan 7, 2018 at 9:58 AM Post #562 of 2,146
Yes, ignorant on one thing. I am ignorant about so many things I can't even count and I humbly admit it.
It's the "I'm spatially enlightened" and "nobody else is" bit that's a problem. And yes, that IS what you're saying.

Please, don't be dramatic. People have their perspective and way of doing things and it hardly ever covers all possible knowledge. I have put a lot of effort on spatiality, but that doesn't make me more "enlightened" than others, just "enlightened" on a different subject.
You've repeatedly come across as "more enlightened than anyone else" on this subject, placing recording engineers globally below you on this subject.
Recording engineers have tons of knowledge and experience I don't have.
You think? And yet you assume they have none of your knowlege? You take your shots at stereo mic configurations, but have you ever recorded an orchestra? Then you apply your own metric and terminology to evaluate the entire body of recorded music as defective, requiring a corrective process, based on your own "enlightenment". How hard would readers have to look to see humility in that?
 
Jan 7, 2018 at 12:56 PM Post #563 of 2,146
1. Spatial distortion as I define it disappears when spatial information gets scaled within human spatial hearing. [1a] Evolutionary prosess has shaped our hearing to decode the sounds coming from our environment. We hear these sound around us in everyday life. Our spatial hearing expects certain kind of correlation between left and right ear.
2a. No, not more than anyone else but "pretty well" as I said.
3. Clearly your definitions for unnatural broken spatiality differs from mine.

1. You define it that way because it appears TO YOU to disappear. However, that is an issue with your personal perception ability, of your "spatial ignorance" because it does NOT disappear, it's still ALWAYS there ...
1a. Yes, our hearing has evolved to decode the sounds of our environment and therefore expects natural acoustic information, including a certain kind of correlation between left and right ear. However, it virtually never gets that from ANY commercial music/audio! It never gets that under ANY listening conditions, including crossfeeding HPs, even crossfeeding HPs with the perfect HRTF or even listening in a theoretically perfect listening environment with theoretically perfect speakers!

2a. You did say, more than once, you are better/more enlightened than others, better even than those who do it for a living and not just better but so much better that those others are "ignorant" in comparison!

3. Yes, clearly! My definition is based on the fact that the acoustic information on commercial audio recordings is not natural, in the vast majority of cases it's not anywhere even vaguely close to natural and is therefore "broken spatially" relative to both what actually exists in our environment and to what our hearing has evolved to expect. Your definition seems to be based purely on your inability to discern this fact (with one type of reproduction). This of course makes you the one who is "spatial ignorant", not those of us who do not suffer from your inability!

We're going round in circles now, you've gone to considerable lengths to invent an explanation which completely avoids any consideration that your experience/preference is due to your personal inability/perception and for this reason you cannot conceive that any experience/preference which differs from yours could be based on anything other than ignorance. The problem is that many of the facts used in your explanation are clearly not facts, so going round in circles (ever smaller circles as your "facts" are discredited) is pretty much your only remaining option which doesn't require you to discard much of your "explanation". However, no one else here wants to see the thread going round in circles and you MUST STOP insulting others for an ignorance/inability which is yours, NOT ours!

G
 
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Jan 7, 2018 at 3:29 PM Post #564 of 2,146
It's the "I'm spatially enlightened" and "nobody else is" bit that's a problem. And yes, that IS what you're saying.

You've repeatedly come across as "more enlightened than anyone else" on this subject, placing recording engineers globally below you on this subject.

I'd say anyone who recognizes and understands the benefits of crossfeed is spatially enlightened.

You think? And yet you assume they have none of your knowledge? You take your shots at stereo mic configurations, but have you ever recorded an orchestra? Then you apply your own metric and terminology to evaluate the entire body of recorded music as defective, requiring a corrective process, based on your own "enlightenment". How hard would readers have to look to see humility in that?

All I know is it's impossible for anyone to know everything. I have not recorded orchestras. My work has been about other things, you know there's other things too to be done in the world besides recordings orchestras. Everyone knows recordings are done for speakers and it causes spatial problems with headphones. That's why some people use crossfeed including me. If that is arrogant then there's nothing I can do about it.
 
Jan 7, 2018 at 3:36 PM Post #565 of 2,146
I'd say anyone who recognizes and understands the benefits of crossfeed is spatially enlightened.

Then listening on speakers would have to qualify as spatial samadhi!
 
Jan 7, 2018 at 3:53 PM Post #566 of 2,146
(...)
1a. Yes, our hearing has evolved to decode the sounds of our environment and therefore expects natural acoustic information, including a certain kind of correlation between left and right ear. However, it virtually never gets that from ANY commercial music/audio! It never gets that under ANY listening conditions, including crossfeeding HPs, even crossfeeding HPs with the perfect HRTF or even listening in a theoretically perfect listening environment with theoretically perfect speakers!
(...)
G

@gregorio

@RRod tried to ask @71 dB, in a subtle way, why he does not consider acoustic crosstalk in stereo playback a distortion.

@pinnahertz and you say that art is done given what the technology allow and that real sound sources don’t need to be a reference and that, in fact, they must not be the reference.

I feel okay if you don’t want to have any real reference.

But I am trying to understand what you mean with your sentence in bold.

Do you mean that currently there is no technology to achieve a listening environment with natural acoustic information?

I am fine with that interpretation of your sentence.

Or do you mean that is theoretically impossible to create such listening environment and that it will never exist?

I don’t feel comfortable with this second interpretation of your sentence.

Other assertive I don’t feel comfortable in your sentence is crossfeeding headphones when you can convolve/convolute a “perfect” HRTF.

If you convolve/convolute a personal binaural room impulse response, it makes sense to crossfeed the signals for headphones playback if you want to emulate the measured speakers in the measured room and it’s ordinary acoustic crosstalk. That’s really important for recording and mastering engineers to mix their work with headphones as if they were exactly in their mastering rooms. Engineers have been doing that with the Realiser A8 for years.

But if you have a high density HRTF (either measured in a anechoic chamber or computationally generated from anthropometric features) why would you want to add crossfeed if you don’t have a mastering or listening room to emulate at all?

Why not letting the mastering engineer to decide if he wants to add crosstalk in the content if he really wants to synthesize two virtual speakers the way they sound in the current standard?

The following research is from 2015:

Applications of 3-Dimensional Spherical Transforms to Acoustics and Personalization of Head-related Transfer Functions (HRTFs)
Date

September 29, 2015

Speaker

Archontis Politis

Affiliation

Aalto University

Series

Microsoft Research Talks



Creative Labs and Lee Teck Chee are claiming that they are comparing anthropometric data and HRTF in large databases with the buzzword technology of the year (neural networks - AI).

As a layman, I really don’t know who to believe...

P.s.: Politis says the HRTFs vary in the near field and I don’t see HRTF measurements with different distances (near, mid and distant fields). My gut feeling is that makes binaural synthesis an easier way to approximately (not precisely) convey proximity.
 
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Jan 7, 2018 at 9:38 PM Post #567 of 2,146
It would be possible to capture a very realistic sound field and reproduce it. It would take a very specific kind of miking, and a custom speaker array that is precisely matched to it. It would be basically a "capture only" system. You couldn't edit or overdub or balance levels. The result would be realistic, but not very exciting. We hear realistic sound every moment of our lives. Recorded music is intended to be *better* than real... more organized, more balanced, more clear, more interesting sounding.

The problem isn't that realism is unattainable. It's that pursuing realism is a waste of a great deal of materials and effort for minimal returns. The first law of being an artist is to know how to use your medium to its strengths. Recording is no different.
 
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Jan 8, 2018 at 3:04 AM Post #568 of 2,146
It would be possible to capture a very realistic sound field and reproduce it. It would take a very specific kind of miking, and a custom speaker array that is precisely matched to it. It would be basically a "capture only" system. You couldn't edit or overdub or balance levels. The result would be realistic, but not very exciting. We hear realistic sound every moment of our lives. Recorded music is intended to be *better* than real... more organized, more balanced, more clear, more interesting sounding.

The problem isn't that realism is unattainable. It's that pursuing realism is a waste of a great deal of materials and effort for minimal returns. The first law of being an artist is to know how to use your medium to its strengths. Recording is no different.

After struggling with this idea, I concede.

I just mean that such feeling may prevent engineers from acquiring familiarity with the new mixing and listening environments and perhaps they may also allow to achieve better than real results.
 
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Jan 8, 2018 at 12:36 PM Post #569 of 2,146
Engineers are really good at assembling a "bag of tricks"... techniques that work best in different situations. I'm sure most of them incorporate all kinds of ideas from immersive sound into their mixes. It's just that doing it strictly that way is impractical and limiting creatively.
 
Jan 11, 2018 at 8:11 AM Post #570 of 2,146
It would be possible to capture a very realistic sound field and reproduce it. It would take a very specific kind of miking, and a custom speaker array that is precisely matched to it. It would be basically a "capture only" system. You couldn't edit or overdub or balance levels. The result would be realistic, but not very exciting. We hear realistic sound every moment of our lives. Recorded music is intended to be *better* than real... more organized, more balanced, more clear, more interesting sounding.
The problem isn't that realism is unattainable. It's that pursuing realism is a waste of a great deal of materials and effort for minimal returns. The first law of being an artist is to know how to use your medium to its strengths. Recording is no different.

I agree that the majority of the time we are trying to make it "better than real". However, there are some music genres where this isn't the case, effectively where we're trying to make it better so that it does sound real. Quite often in audiophile discussions the topic is brought around to the comparison of a live acoustic performance, such as orchestral music, with a recorded equivalent. The problem here is quite different to the "better than [and not even directly concerned with] real" which is the case with the non-acoustic genres. In the case of acoustic genres such as orchestral, I would re-word the part I've highlighted in bold to: "The result would often not appear to be entirely realistic or very exciting, because what we hear at an orchestral concert is not real in the first place!" - What actually enters our ears and what we perceive are two different things. Our brain will filter/reduce what it thinks is irrelevant, such as the constant noise floor of the audience for example, and increase the level of what it thinks is most important, such as what we are looking at (the instrument/s with the solo line for example). This isn't "real" at all, although of course it feels entirely real. Clearly, even with a theoretically perfect capture system, all we're going to record is the real sound waves but when reproduced, the brain is generally not going to perceive those sound waves as it would in the live performance because the visual cues and other biases which informed that perception are entirely different. So, the trend over the decades has been to create a orchestral music product which sounds realistic relative to human perception rather than just accurately capture the sound waves which would enter one's ears. To achieve this we use elaborate mic'ing setups which allows us to alter the relative levels of various parts of the orchestra in mixing (as our perception would in the live performance). However, a consequence of this is messed-up timing, as sound wave arrival times are going to vary between all the different mics (which are necessarily in significantly different positions). This is an unavoidable trade-off, we're always going to get messed-up spatial information but with careful adjustment during mixing we can hopefully end up with a mix which is not perceived to be too spatially messed-up (even though it still is). This "careful adjustment" is done mainly on speakers but is typically checked on HPs and further adjustments may be made if the illusion/perception of not being spatially messed-up is considered to be too negatively affected by HP presentation. This brings me back to what I stated previously, that pretty much whatever we listen to and however we're listening to it (speakers, HPs, HPs with crossfeed, etc.) we've always got messed-up timing, "spatial distortion" or whatever else you want to call it.

PS. I know you're probably aware of all this already bigshot.

I'd say anyone who recognizes and understands the benefits of crossfeed is spatially enlightened.

Following on from what I've just stated: In the case of acoustic genres such as orchestral music, where an illusion/perception of reality is a serious concern then whether or not crossfeeding is beneficial will depend on these variables: The various mic placements used to make the recording in the first place, the "careful adjustments" made during mixing, the further adjustments made when checking the mix on HPs and your personal perception/preference. From all this we can make certain statements/deductions:

1. One thing is certain, crossfeeding cannot and is NOT correcting/fixing "spatial distortion", it's there, baked into the recording and cannot be un-baked! All we're talking about therefore is just different presentations of that spatial distortion, not about a type of presentation which doesn't have spatial distortion.
2. While one may have a personal preference for crossfeed, it is likely to be contrary to the intent of the engineers/artists and to "fidelity", assuming the mix has been checked/adjusted on HPs. Unless of course that checking/adjusting was done with crossfeed but that would be exceptionally rare.
3. Anyone who believes/perceives that spatial distortion ceases to exist, disappears or is fixed by crossfeed is deluded and by definition NOT spatially enlightened but the exact opposite! Now, as it's all based on illusion/delusion in the first place, with any type of presentation, that's not as outrageously insulting as it appears. Nevertheless, in direct response to the quote: If you are ONLY able to "recognise and understand the benefits of crossfeed" but not able to recognise or understand it's disadvantages and not able to recognise and understand that you've still got spatial distortion, then you are CLEARLY NOT "spatially enlightened", you are (and must be) DELUDED!!! So again, enough with the "I'm spatially enlightened" BS, you're not, you're actually spatially deluded but just don't (and/or won't) realise it!

G
 

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