Thoughts on choosing a high quality headphone amp?

[Gipper17]

I'm certainly not an "audiophile", but I truly enjoy listening intently to fine details in music. I'm about to purchase a Zidoo Eversolo DAC-Z8 (DAC with internal headphone amp) but a review I saw on this site suggested that the internal amp was not very high quality (although the specs are certainly impressive to me - THD+N@A-wt <0.00016%; SNR@No-wt & DNR of 124 dB). In that review the one posting suggested getting a "higher quality headphone amp". Through numerous Google searches (most producing headphone amps for portable music players, but others with ambiguous data) I threw my hands up and said: "OK, how about something from Rupert Neve, he's always got quality stuff?". So I looked up the RNHP and I was baffled, because the specs shown were in somewhat different categories, making comparison difficult, and the ones which could be directly compared seemed worse than the internal amp in the Z8. So then I figured I'd just look up an insanely expensive one, and I looked up the Manley Absolute Headphone Amp ($5,000), but it's specs don't show anything that jumps out at me. So it left me suspecting that I'm looking for the wrong thing, BUT WHAT IS THE "RIGHT" THING? It's not like you can go to a stereo store and listen. Can anyone please help me out. The basic question is this: If I want to add an external headphone amp to the Z8 to improve the quality and pay less than $800 for it, what should I be looking for (feel free to recommend brands and models, but at this point I'm looking to be educated)? Thanks!

 

[msing539]

It's an interesting thing. You can't rely on specs for how they sound--some amps measure well but sound lifeless, some measure poorly but sound incredible. Two amps can have the same output power and similar specs but be built (and sound) completely differently.

Without being able to listen, you ultimately just have to figure out what's in your price range with the features you want and then see what owners have to say about them.

 

[Gipper17]

Thanks msing539, that makes sense. I guess I tripped over the post that (referring to the Z8) had all kinds of complimentary things to say about the DAC, then said the headphone amp was good, but probably something like a $100 to $150 "afterthought" added as "value added" and it would be better to get a "good quality headphone amp". So rather than just "assume" that any external headphone amp would be an improvement, I was seeking anyone's thoughts on clarifying what the author might have meant. But I totally agree with you about the specs vs. sound aspect, and I appreciate your input. I also appreciate the list at the end, and I'll check them out, but with a cursory glance it appears many are headphones, and at least one is a DAC + headphone amp. Nevertheless I'll try to find a site where I can try several amps and return the ones I don't like without spending an arm and a leg on shipping and restocking fees.

 

[msing539]

the list at the end

You're welcome! But that list at the end is my signature of what I own and have sold.

 

[Gipper17]

So sorry - rookie mistake!

 

[Monsterzero]

One needs to understand ones own personal preferences as well as understanding what type of amp works the best for your own personal collection of headphones.

You quoted a very low THD number, which depending upon headphones, DAC and source used and again, personal preferences, a low THD amp might be a good thing or not so good.
Often times amps with an ultra low THD have a very linear, revealing sound. However they can also sound quite sterile and can be lacking musicality. If you add in a revealing headphone, like the HD800 for example, you might be able to hear the producer burp in the studio, but you will also be able to hear any weak links in your own chain, as well as some music with less-than-stellar production can become unlistenable.

On the flip side, some amps have a high THD. I have quite a few vintage amps, with some that have a THD as high as 0.2! Similarly, tube amps tend to have a high THD, yet many of us love our tube gear, which might be confusing to someone who doesnt understand the difference between odd and even order harmonics. Without writing a manifesto on the distortion topic, odd order distortion is bad. Even order distortion sounds great, but when amps have an ultra low THD the good even order harmonics get thrown out the window along with the bad odd order ones.

For more on this topic, check here.

Finally, some amps are made to drive low impedance/ high sensitivity headphones, some are made for high impedance/ high sensitivity, some are good for high impedance/ low sensitivity HPs and some are good for low impedance/low sensitivity HPs like planars.
Listen to the wrong headphone on the wrong amp and you might encounter a less than stellar listen. Some modern amps put out a lot of current for the notoriously difficult to drive planars like the Abyss 1266, Susvara, HE-6 and others. Not many amps can drive those headphones well, but if you use a high sensitivity/low impedance dynamic headphone on that amp you may encounter a serious humming noise in the background, so it's quite important to understand what amps work best with not only your HPs that you own now, but also which headphones that are on your 'want list' as well.

 

[Gipper17]

Excellent points Monsterzero, and I appreciate them. I also certainly know what you mean about understanding personal preferences. Not to ramble but what I'm always searching for is great definition (clarity) in low & mid range, and smooth, not harsh, shrill, or tinny upper end. My "comparisons" are always done with acoustic guitars, pianos, French horns, violas, and vocals that tend to be in the lower register (like Joan Baez, James Taylor, or Mark Knopfler). Biggest problem I see is that in the name of gaining clarity below 1,500 Hz I often get the "shrill" with stuff above 2,500 Hz.

As for the equipment, I totally understand and agree. I don't have the budget to be an audiophile, but I'd like to squeeze as much out of my music as possible. So given my budget constraints I wind up with a DAC like the Eversolo Z8 and for my headphones I use Beyerdynamic DT700 Pro X, which is $280 vs. the $1,500 HD 800's you mentioned.

Now I'm going to guess that most people on this site would read what I wrote and basically think: "This guy could use just about any moderate to low priced equipment and achieve what he says he's looking for", and that's kind of true, but doesn't satisfy. The mental image I have is of a time when I was 12 years old in a friend's house and his father was playing "Lucky Man" (ELP) on this amazing (or so I reckoned) system with JBL L82s. Perhaps I can't get that "fullness" and clarity from headphones (or maybe not with "closed back" headphones), but I'd like to think I can. I just have to find out where to go and see if I can afford it (headphones for me are critical because where I spend most of my time is in a room that has perfectly horrible acoustics).

So given what I have said, let's suppose $10k suddenly drops into my lap. If I were to buy a pair of Sennheiser HD800's ($1,500), a Manley Absolute Headphone amp ($5,000), and for the DAC I'll stick with the Eversolo Z8 ($700), do you think I could recreate that "Lucky Man" scenario, or am I forever doomed to grabbing clarity, then using EQ to season it appropriately?

Also, I appreciate that you mentioned about how misleading distortion specs can be, and the difference between even and odd harmonics. I can appreciate that. And even if we're not pulling out a spectrum analyzer to check it, I believe it becomes one of those: "I'll know what I like when I hear it", but that circles back to my original concern (or complaint) about how there are no stereo stores anymore to go and listen, therefore we are kind of left to looking at reviews and hoping that the individual reviewing the product either has similar tastes (unlikely), or can explain things in such detail that the audience can get meaningful info from it.

 

[Monsterzero]

Biggest problem I see is that in the name of gaining clarity below 1,500 Hz I often get the "shrill" with stuff above 2,500 Hz.

I havent heard the Beyer DT700 so take my words with a few grains of salt, but...... I have owned the Beyer T1.1, DT990 (twice), DT880, DT770 and each and every one of them had recessed mids and piercing treble. Again the DT700 might be different, but from my experiences, Beyers are notorious treble cannons.

I wind up with a DAC like the Eversolo Z8 and for my headphones I use Beyerdynamic DT700 Pro X

I might suggest to look into products with a bigger name recognition, so that when the day comes for you to upgrade, and if you stick around this forum long enough, trust me you will be upgrading, it will be easier for you to sell on the used market.

The mental image I have is of a time when I was 12 years old in a friend's house and his father was playing "Lucky Man" (ELP) on this amazing (or so I reckoned) system with JBL L82s. Perhaps I can't get that "fullness" and clarity from headphones (or maybe not with "closed back" headphones), but I'd like to think I can. I just have to find out where to go and see if I can afford it (headphones for me are critical because where I spend most of my time is in a room that has perfectly horrible acoustics).

Sounds to me like you enjoy the sweet warm sound of the glorious 1970s

For that expansive 3D experience that "Lucky Man" can give, you will want a headphone that has an expansive soundstage and have a clear, detailed yet warm-ish, full bodied, textured sound. In my experience one of the very best for that type of sound would be from ZMF. Unfortunately ZMF headphones ain't cheap. The closest thing I can think of might be the Sennheiser HD6xx, though it's stage is quite narrow, couple that with a Bottlehead Crack amp and you will have a very nice sounding system for not a lot of coin, relatively speaking.

There are headphones in that price point that do have an expansive stage, but typically they will sound bass light and perhaps shrill as well.

So given what I have said, let's suppose $10k suddenly drops into my lap. If I were to buy a pair of Sennheiser HD800's ($1,500), a Manley Absolute Headphone amp ($5,000), and for the DAC I'll stick with the Eversolo Z8 ($700), do you think I could recreate that "Lucky Man" scenario, or am I forever doomed to grabbing clarity, then using EQ to season it appropriately?

10K?

ZMF Atrium, a good OTL with NOS tubes, like the Tung Sol 5998s and Tung Sol Black glass round plate 6SN7 and a good R2R DAC. For less warmth and a more incisive sound, substitute the R2R DAC for a well implemented D/S DAC.

Or grab a Susvara or for a more full bodied sound, the ZMF Caldera, a good transformer coupled tube amp and a DAC of your choosing.

Welcome to Head-Fi. Sorry about your wallet.

 

[Gipper17]

LOL - I'll pass your condolences on to my wife (and to my kids for their lost inheritance)!

So I'll freely admit that the brands/models you mentioned all sound like a foreign language to me, but that's good. As an old retired guy I have plenty of time for "Sunday drives", I just didn't know what direction to head out in, and you've given me some, so thanks!

 

[Monsterzero]

You're welcome, and for what its worth I'm old and retired too. A couple nights ago I was listening to Lucky Man on my Caldera, out of my Violectric V550 pro amp and Merason DAC 1 and it was a full on psychedelic listening experience.
I have way more than $10k into my system, but it's worth noting I started out in this hobby using my PC's soundcard as a DAC. It's taken me years to build my system and I still have some things to upgrade (it never ends), and very few people in this hobby nail the perfect sound on the first go round of purchases, hence why I suggested a more well known company for your DAC. Something from Schiit will get you started as a DAC and will be easy to sell down the road once upgradeitis hits.

EDIT:

Here's a decent budget setup for you to consider:

DAC- Schiit Modi MB
SS amp- Schiit x Nitsch Piety
tube amp- Bottlehead Crack +tubes
Sennheiser HD6xx


Use the HD6xx on either amp, but the Crack will be best. try and find a used pair of the Fidelio X1 and use the Piety for that. The X1 has a large stage and hits pretty hard and can be had for around 100 bucks used. Replace the stock cable on the X1 as it isnt good. Buying used is a must as its discontinued.

The HD6xx is mainly warm, with rich mids and a nice midbass bump, sub bass is a bit rolled off as is the treble and has a narrow stage, but pretty nice imaging. The X1 is the opposite of the 6xx. More v-shaped, with nice hard hitting bass, some treble energy and quite large stage for that price.

 

[Gipper17]

Can you please put me in your will?

 

[UntilThen]

I have way more than $10k into my system

I have $1000 in my system and intend on keeping it that way.

 

[Monsterzero]

I have $1000 in my system and intend on keeping it that way.

 

[UntilThen]

I do.. this is my endgame as soon I get the headphone jack fixed because someone's grandkid kick on the headphone cable and now every 3 notes into the music, it hums and hiss. Other than that, it's pure bliss.

 

[gimmeheadroom]

Excellent points Monsterzero, and I appreciate them. I also certainly know what you mean about understanding personal preferences. Not to ramble but what I'm always searching for is great definition (clarity) in low & mid range, and smooth, not harsh, shrill, or tinny upper end. My "comparisons" are always done with acoustic guitars, pianos, French horns, violas, and vocals that tend to be in the lower register (like Joan Baez, James Taylor, or Mark Knopfler). Biggest problem I see is that in the name of gaining clarity below 1,500 Hz I often get the "shrill" with stuff above 2,500 Hz.

Ok, HD 800s are definitely not a good choice for you. The HD 660S2 might be the magic sauce, especially with an OTL tube amp.

So given what I have said, let's suppose $10k suddenly drops into my lap. If I were to buy a pair of Sennheiser HD800's ($1,500), a Manley Absolute Headphone amp ($5,000), and for the DAC I'll stick with the Eversolo Z8 ($700), do you think I could recreate that "Lucky Man" scenario, or am I forever doomed to grabbing clarity, then using EQ to season it appropriately?

Don't do it. Without listening to a lot of gear and refining your thoughts on what you like and what you don't, you're unlikely to shoot a bullseye on the first try. And to my view, EQ is for fixing sonic problems. It is not and should not be a general part of listening and should not be required. There are edge cases where it is, so if you need it you need it. But it should not be part of the calculation, it will not fix inappropriate equipment choices.

Also, I appreciate that you mentioned about how misleading distortion specs can be, and the difference between even and odd harmonics. I can appreciate that. And even if we're not pulling out a spectrum analyzer to check it, I believe it becomes one of those: "I'll know what I like when I hear it", but that circles back to my original concern (or complaint) about how there are no stereo stores anymore to go and listen, therefore we are kind of left to looking at reviews and hoping that the individual reviewing the product either has similar tastes (unlikely), or can explain things in such detail that the audience can get meaningful info from it.

Yep!

I have $1000 in my system and intend on keeping it that way.

LOL, you have to see this guy's gear. He has $1000 in one tube