[Dick Danger]

I've been thinking about getting a new amp to go with my other stuff. The SM3 is at the top of the list at the moment, but a new something from HeadRoom is a close second. When I think about adding to my home system I usually add the stability of the manufacturer to the checklist. Having Andy Payor build you a super cool turntable is nice but what if he gets hit by a bus, or a Saudi Prince offers him an obscene amount of money to work only for him. You'd be in a tough spot. So I'm wondering how many of you worry about the stability of your amp makers?

On the other hand I have a few ancient pieces that still work so maybe I need something else to worry about.

 

[crazyfrenchman27]

Never, because audio equipment tends to endure longer than your interest in it. You'll probably sell it before it needs repair or warranty service.

Regardless, if your stuff is reliable, it's going to stick around for a good ten years.

-Matt

 

[atx]

Quote:

So I'm wondering how many of you worry about the stability of your amp makers?

I do, because all of my portable amps have the headphone jack directly soldered to the board and not tied to the case. I know its a matter of time before that solder comes off and you get a loose connection. Take a look at the tiny SM board (and mini solder joints) and guess how much pressure that board can stand being pushed and pulled by the jack while its in your backpack or pocket. It sure got me worried as far as how long Xin stays in the amp business.

Both of my Pioneer receivers have their headphone jacks busted, but that may be because its a crappy quality brand.

 

[Onix]

You guys have to consider something: Even if the maker of some amp stops building and repairing them, there will always be someone elses who's capable of repairing your stuff. Things like loose connections are easy to repair. Other stuff, of course, like vintage caps or things like that, are not, but that's a different story and you can always dig parts on eBay, for example.

 

[atx]

Quote:

Even if the maker of some amp stops building and repairing them, there will always be someone elses who's capable of repairing your stuff.

I seriously doubt this. If my SR71 suddenly stops working, it may be a loose connection, or maybe one of the ICs died. You need another engineer with the know-how to troubleshoot the problem (i.e. trace the circuit) and repair it. This type of skill isn't cheap, and the cost of the labor will probably be half the cost of the amp, which I would rather put towards a new amp.

If I had the Supermacro, finding someone with Xin's soldering skills is a feat in itself! He himself notes on his website that he can charge up to $200 per solder joint. If the supermacro dies and Xin is in a different business, I say you're basically stuck with a very expensive paperweight.

Quote:

Things like loose connections are easy to repair.

As I read your post, I thought about the Zen Micro.

I suppose if you're dextrous with a soldering iron, it's a fairly straightforward job. Not me though.

 

[aseltzer144]

Higher end audio, with a few exceptions, has always been about the small guys. Some move on to other ventures, some fail to stay in business, and some continue to grow their businesses. Fortunately, at least in my experience, most of these devices continue to function reliably for many years, sometimes after the builder is no longer involved with the product. Often, when one small guy abandons his product for whatever reason, another entrepreneurial guy pops up to service the product. I am referring more to higher end, often expensive, rack dwelling gear, but I suspect the same is true of today's portable gear. With the cost of larger gear being often much higher than with portable gear, the leap of faith taken with these builders is even greater. Yet, that didn't impede me from pursuing the higher end of audio.

While I do expect that much of yesteryear's gear will continue to last indefinitely, I look at these purchases from a time based cost of ownership perspective. For example, lets say I spend $400 on a portable amp which arguably buys me a state of the art product today. Let's say it fails miserably after three years and cannot be soldered or have its circuit traced by mere mortals, and the builder is now working full time for GE with an unlisted phone number. Despite the unlikelihood of all these circumstances coming true, that works out to $0.37 per day to own this amp. For less than the cost of a cup of coffee, I've enjoyed a state of the art product for three years - and that's probably a worst case scenario.

High end audio, portable or otherwise, will always be targeted to the discerning minority of dedicated listeners and hobbyists who appreciate the finest gear that state of the art techniques and components can realize. As such, this market will generally be served by the small builder who also shares this audio passion along with the electronic knowledge to make it happen. While such products cannot always come with the stability of a Sony behind them, they also represent works that would just not be market justified on the drawing boards of such companies.

My advice would be to continue to seek out the gear you will enjoy with the audio properties you desire regardless of the size of the manufacturer. From the perspective of the highest audio fidelity, there is usually no other choice.

 

[john_jcb]

Troubleshooting and repair of any piece of electronics can get expensive fairly quickly if you need to have it done out of warranty by someone other than the original manufacturer. When buying gear I try and look at the construction (through published pictures or when possible inspection) and assess how hard it would be to repair. There are a couple of key things I look for. First is that components should be removable without disturbing or having to unsolder any other component. Leads are too easy to damage and this reduces risk and repair cost. Builds that are poorly thought out often have their components layered making it extremely difficult to fix. I also look for how they are attached. Wires and leads that are twisted together are often difficult to desolder. Another thing to look at if possible is the quality of the soldering job. Solder should never be used as a structural element but rather to join two items. There should also be no evidence of flux or cold solder joints. It is not always possible to look at commercial equipment but if you have the chance to look don't pass it up. I remember some of the truly poorly built PC boards from the days when they first started making their way into commercial gear. They were so bad that the traces would lift during normal use and often with the first attempted repair. Today the situation is much better but I still try and look before I buy if at all possible.

 

[eyevancsu]

If a jack is directly attached to a board, i see a very slim chance of it ever coming off. I agree with Onix in that i also think that there will always be someone else to repair your amp, sometimes even for free. Ive seen various posts over the years of how different people offer their services to fix someones unwilling amp, for free just to help someone out (jmt comes to mind). If an IC on the board of your sr-71 died or had a loose connection, i'd be willing to bet that any amp builder (not just those that do it for money) would be able to realize that a chip is dead or that there is a loose wire/cold joint/etc as ive done it for a few amps that i havent even seen before.

Quote:

He himself notes on his website that he can charge up to $200 per solder joint.

So could I, but it doesnt mean that that's what it's worth or is what anyone will even think once about paying. At that price you should probably go get your attorney and let him do it, probably end up being cheaper.

Oh yea, nicely written aseltzer144!

- Ivan C.

 

[rickcr42]

When I do local vintage gear repair work I charge $100/hr excluding parts which obviously cost additional.This is major work and not worth my time unless it IS worth my time.A TV/VCR repairman charges a min of $50 per and that is why these pieces of equipment are now built to be disposable.A repurtable audio repair man will get anywhere from $50-$75 per hour.
This may seem high but you do not want your neighborhood whiz kid who likes to tinker bringing your gear back in pieces and then saying "whoops" !

Folks also need to consider the expense of the proper equipment required to repair and set up these pieces of gear.It is not simply "wing it" and anyone reputable will give you the test sheets after the repair to show actual operation.All the graphs showing response,distortion,etc.

If I build a simple little amp and something goes south I just do what most do and chuck it.If my VCR or DVD player and a good amount of the CD players I have owned go bad I chuck them.Most electronics are meant to be tossed and not repaired and that is why they are using large scale chips with everything inside except for a couple of resistor or caps to set operating points or bypass the power supplies and that is IT !

If I purchase audio equipment rather than make it I will only deal with a reputable manufacturer who I know will still be around in ten years and that if anything should go wrong or upgrades are available I will not be caught out.There is a bit of peace of mind going on when dealing with a company that not only has a history but a future.

the old "you get what you pay for" holds very true in audio.I don't buy TVs out of the back of someones van no matter how cheap that TV is and I will not buy an amp from someone building them at his kitchen table.Anyone who does not take these things serious enough to do it right and that means an actual company paying taxes I also do not take seriously.

Just my opinion as usual.......

 

[Dick Danger]

Quote:

Originally Posted by aseltzer144 Higher end audio, with a few exceptions, has always been about the small guys.

True enough but if other factors are mostly equal I think it's easier to go with Pass or Krell vs. some guy working in his basement.

 

[Beauregard]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dick Danger ...The SM3 is at the top of the list at the moment, but a new something from HeadRoom is a close second. ...

Does Xin offer a money-back audition period similar to HeadRoom's? If so, I'd suggest getting both amps for a side-by-side comparison. If you prefer the features and sonics of the HeadRoom, then you have no conflict. If you prefer the SM3 then you can make a rational cost-benefit analysis about which amp to keep.

The issue you raise aside, I believe that if one can afford to temporarily tie up the funds for a double purchase, it's a great idea to have two "final contender" components available for a direct comparison. It can prevent a bad case of buyer's remorse or second guessing one's choice. I think that the resulting peace of mind is well worth the shipping costs that the double audition will cost. Head-Fi'er wakeride74 used this technique quite successfully and I think others can benefit from the example.

The amp makers offer the money-back period because they want you to try their products - so take maximum advantage of it!

Best,
Beau

 

[aseltzer144]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dick Danger True enough but if other factors are mostly equal I think it's easier to go with Pass or Krell vs. some guy working in his basement.

As the high end goes, Krell and Pass are two of the bigger names for sure, but relatively speaking with respect to mass market gear, they are also small guys. While I don't know their specific history, I imagine they started out as "guys working in their basements" as did the guys who developed the original version of the Apple computer which I do the bulk of my portable listening on. In other words, there's some good things born in some garages.

Krell and Pass found a way to become commercially established, due in some part to a pricing model that sadly put their stellar products beyond the reach of the average small audiophile. I have no idea what their financial positions are but if I were buying gear in that class, I still don't know that their marketplace longevity would be a question I would ask. Then again, that's why some people would call me an audiophile - because I obstinately value sound quality over all other pragmatic parameters. I'm also reasonably confident that there would be someone around to service their products if they could not remain in business.

I'm not suggesting that anyone be cavalier with their expendable audio dollar nor would I equate garage built products necessarily to lower quality. I'm just glad to see the cottage industry that has risen up around portable audio and I'm grateful that there are some budding designers putting some good work out there for our audio enjoyment.

 

[atx]

Quote:

Originally Posted by aseltzer144 While I do expect that much of yesteryear's gear will continue to last indefinitely, I look at these purchases from a time based cost of ownership perspective. For example, lets say I spend $400 on a portable amp which arguably buys me a state of the art product today. Let's say it fails miserably after three years and cannot be soldered or have its circuit traced by mere mortals, and the builder is now working full time for GE with an unlisted phone number.

Three years? The sr71 has barely been out a year, and the Supermacro-3 just came out. There's no data at all to suggest that any of these gears will last 3 years. Here's hoping that $400 investment lasts at least 3 years.

Do you think Xin or Ray will publish their repair rate? i.e. how many percentage of their amps come back for service? I highly doubt it.


Quote:

I agree with Onix in that i also think that there will always be someone else to repair your amp, sometimes even for free. Ive seen various posts over the years of how different people offer their services to fix someones unwilling amp, for free just to help someone out (jmt comes to mind).

I'm just a lot more cynical than you. Why on earth would someone waste their time fixing other people's gears for free? The mindset that, "I'll buy this amp because there's someone out there who will fix it for free if it ever goes wrong" is just wishful thinking.

jmt never reply to my emails, so maybe he's nice to other amp builders with whom he can exchange knowledge, but definitely not to me-- an average joe who knows nothing about amp building.


Quote:

anyone who does not take these things serious enough to do it right and that means an actual company paying taxes I also do not take seriously

Amp builders who take payment through paypal has no incentive to pay taxes, and I doubt they do.

 

[Shayla]

My Rega Ear lasted about 6 months until it started smelling of sulphur. Granted, I wouldn't have known unless I took it apart to see the mod opporties and got a good whiff. It might still work for another year, but I know it's pretty much doomed.

 

[aseltzer144]

Quote:

Originally Posted by atx Three years? The sr71 has barely been out a year, and the Supermacro-3 just came out. There's no data at all to suggest that any of these gears will last 3 years. Here's hoping that $400 investment lasts at least 3 years. Do you think Xin or Ray will publish their repair rate? i.e. how many percentage of their amps come back for service? I highly doubt it.

My example was not intended to refer to any specific product but just to illustrate that in the highly unlikely case of a total failure in a arbitrarily chosen short period of time, the expense was justifiable. I don't have any experience with an SR71 or SM3, but I suspect they will last far more than three years. They will likely see replacement owing to a desire to upgrade than to component failure. I have some gear than is maybe twenty years old and still in use today. The beauty of high end audio is that, particulary with respect to preamps, amps, and speakers, it never really becomes obsolete. There's not too many technology based hobbies where you can say that.