Thoughts on a bunch of DACs (and why delta-sigma kinda sucks, just to get you to think about stuff)
Jul 16, 2015 at 12:12 PM Post #6,271 of 6,500
   
I think I do understand what you mean, but it also seems to me that different people use the term very differently, and to mean subtly different things... to me the term "over-analytical" seems more accurate to describe "the condition" you're talking about. I agree with you that something that over-emphasizes the separation between individual elements is not a good thing, however I don't see that as being part of the same "scale" between accurate and not accurate. In other words, to me, being analytical means "being totally uncolored and accurate and not covering anything up" - and exaggerating the differences goes past "being totally analytical" and into something else - being inaccurate in the other direction altogether.
 
I prefer to use the analogy of a picture. When you take a digital photo, it can be sharp or blurry, and the color can be accurate or not, and the contrast and brightness can be accurate or not. These are all things that can be measured, and each can be more or less accurate, but I would say that "being analytical" or "being accurate" means that all of them would be "correct". Now, it may be that, from an artistic point of view, we may prefer a particular photo if it is less accurate (for example, it's common to deliberately blur photos of faces to hide blemishes, and to airbrush entire bodies to de-emphasize obvious flaws, and deliberately exaggerating colors looks very cool in certain cases). However, very few people I know would deliberately buy a blurry TV so old movies look less obviously bad, or deliberately buy a poor quality camera because it doesn't show up the flaws in their subjects. (Many photographers use a "gel" filter to "soften" certain pictures, or use equivalent post-processing in Photoshop, but very few would buy a camera that was incapable of delivering a sharp picture if called upon to do so. Likewise, you might consider a TV that includes a "soft picture" option for watching old movies, but probably only if it has an "off switch" for when you don't want it.)
 
Now, Photoshop also has an option that allows you to "sharpen" a picture after it is taken. In reality, what this feature actually does is to boost the contrast ratio around edges. (Processing a picture to deliberately add slight halos around high-contrast edges - a dark halo on the dark on the dark edge and a light halo on in the light edge - makes it appear to be sharper.) However, it's really a sort of optical illusion. It doesn't actually add detail but, by making the details that are already there more apparent, it makes the picture seem more detailed. If properly applied, this trick can make a too-soft picture look very good, but, if over-applied, it produces an exaggerated effect that looks unnatural. To me, the way a picture that's been over-sharpened looks is exactly analogous to the way some equipment sounds - and like what you described - almost like someone has artificially outlined the edges of each instrument or note (and this seems to be what some people describe as sounding "etched" - which is a great description of how over-sharpened pictures look).
My point of that somewhat long winded description was to demonstrate that the two "directions" are NOT really a continuum. Even though it may seem that way to people who've never taken a picture or used Photoshop, there isn't a single "control" that goes from "blurry" to "sharp". There are really two separate controls, one for "added blurriness" and another for "added sharpness". And, to me, if applied to a picture, the term "analytical" would mean - NO added blurriness and NO added sharpness. (No-one would describe the cartoon-like picture you would get if you turned the sharpness all the way up in Photoshop as "analytical" - they would describe it as having exaggerated sharpness - or even as looking like a caricature.) You can add "blur" to compensate for a certain picture being "annoyingly sharp", or to cover up details you'd prefer not to see, and you can add "sharpening" to compensate for a picture that's "too soft", but they are still two distinct colorations, and the the most accurate picture will have none of either (and, with images, there is a pretty obvious point where that is true).
 
I believe that a lot of audiophiles don't understand this distinction... and to me it seems pretty important. If your headphones and amp blur the details, then the solution is to reduce the problem that causes the blurring, but that's not the same as taking something that's neutral to begin with and add something that artificially boosts the "audio contrast". You can't make the blur go away by adding sharpness - at best you can create an illusion that makes it look superficially better. And, likewise, if something alters the sound in the way you describe, which I would equate to over-sharpening a picture, then the solution is to reduce the flaw that's causing the error in that direction, but that's not the same as simply "adding blur". But you DON'T fix an over-sharpened picture by adding blur. (You might argue that adding sharpening to a blurred picture does in fact improve it, but most photographers would agree that doing so is a last resort, only used after you've done your best to eliminate the original error.)
 
To me, from a technical perspective, it seem like an awful lot of discussions about headphones and amps come down to "this headphone is too sharp - I need to find a blurry amp to go with it", or the reverse, as if there were in fact a single control that went from one to the other. (To me, this seems rather like trying to correct nuances in frequency response with one of those old "Tone" controls, rather than using more accurate Bass and treble controls... and I can't imagine an audiophile using a Tone control to correct for his overly-bright speakers - because it's obvious that the solution almost certainly won't "line up" with the problem. (If we're talking about a simple aberration in frequency response, then boosting the treble in one device to compensate for a roll off in another may produce a good result, but that's usually NOT what we're talking about, which makes a proper and effective solution somewhat more complicated.) If you agree with my assessment, then it also becomes obvious that we must differentiate between correcting a problem where a device is adding unnatural and excessive detail, and starting with something that's simply totally accurate, then reducing the amount of detail because of a personal preference for a softer audio picture, or because we're listening to flawed source material which simply sounds better when we don't hear all the details. 
 
Personally, I much prefer to do my best to start out with "perfectly neutral", removing as many colorations and imperfections as possible, then adding the precise colorations and alterations I like, rather than to try and find more or less random combinations of flaws and colorations that add and cancel in such a way that I like the result. (Both because it seems like "the more rational way to do things", and because that way I don't have to re-think my entire system every time I "throw off the delicate balance" by changing one component or another.)
 
(That's why, to me, saying "over analytical" is sort of like saying that a picture is "too perfect"....  in that it sort of doesn't make sense .... To me, a "perfectly analytical" system would make it so each individual instrument, and even each note, was precisely distinct and not at all burred together but, at the same time, wouldn't exaggerate the separation between them either. Anything past that would have crossed from "analytical" to something else... )

 

Yes I expected you to have another definition to the word analytical. But analytical is a common word that is used wildly not only in audio terms and to mean break down and separating the thing you want to analyze into smaller parts. In my line of work we use the phrase put on analytic glasses for the thing we want to resolve or analyze.

 

http://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/analytical

 

The blur and sharpness you are talking about can be a bi-product of over or under analytical sound but is not analytical per se IMO. The same for neutral or accurately they are separate terms and explain other factors (that can be manifested at the same time as more analytical reproduction), but stand for other SQ effects.

 

I know that then increase the contrast in Photoshop you actually make the resolution less in other parts of the picture to get the effect of a sharper edges. More or less the same way the record industry do then remastering a record by lowering the overall dynamic to get more headroom for changing and emphasizing particular leading edge frequencies. The result is good and sharper in many people’s hifi, but often really crappie in a more reveling system.

 

 “You can't make the blur go away by adding sharpness - at best you can create an illusion that makes it look superficially better.”

 

Our hearing is not perfect or liner so practically the gear that can make all the fault and artifacts in frequencies that we can’t hear, or at least not hear so good is better than the one that puts them so we can, right? That has to include the fault and artifacts that can interfere with the frequencies we can hear. Normally we distinguish between the distortion/coloration that is harmonic to the one that is non harmonic. The reason is that we normally can like or at least tolerate a bit of harmonic coloration because it follows the music whilst the non-harmonic do not. 

 
Jul 16, 2015 at 12:15 PM Post #6,272 of 6,500
   
I don't claim to know anything about audio engineering, I'm just a computer nerd who likes this hobby.  So please take this as it's meant:  just as a point of conversation, not contention.  
 
It sounds like what you're talking about is the audio version of what gamers call anti-aliasing on graphics cards.  Why wouldn't something like that work well in audio if it works okay in video?  I can certainly see going overboard with it similar to how newer TV's will interpolate entire frames, giving the much-debated "soap opera effect".  But I'd think a little bit of anti-aliasing (where you average the differences between two given samples and stick and extra sample in between to smooth out the transition) could sound good if done right.
 
Or am I misunderstanding your point and we're talking about two different things?

 
I think you've got it completely right.
 
My point, though, is that a lot of audiophiles seem to confuse accurate with "overly analytical". You're quite right; anti-aliasing is often used with screen fonts, because it usually makes them easier to read - but you still wouldn't refer to the anti-aliased version as being more accurate. It is in fact a "euphonic visual distortion". You also generally wouldn't refer to anti-aliasing in the more general sense when describing it. (A graphic artist might say "that font is easier to read if I apply a bit of anti-aliasing", but very few would say "I kind of like the way fuzzy monitors look". Therefore, to me, when someone says that a certain device sounds "too analytical", I kind of assume that either:
 
a) they're using the term to mean that it reveals too many details accurately - in which case it translates as "too perfect" (and, to me, there's no such thing as "too perfect"). 
 
b) they're saying that it over-emphasizes details - in which case it isn't at all "too perfect"; rather it's unnaturally exaggerating details, which is simply an imperfection of exaggerating details (a flaw)
 
I guess the term and usage just bug me because it seems to be one of the many ways in which something which, at least to me, seems like an objective claim, is used to describe something subjective. (To me, an amplifier, or a headphone, has a specific job - and it should do it as well as possible. Therefore, to me, saying that a headphone amp is "too analytical" makes no more sense than saying that a good microscope is "too analytical" or the picture on your TV is "too sharp". I can imagine a microscope that is fuzzy, or one that exaggerates the edges of things, but I can't imagine how one could be "too analytical" - the idea simply doesn't make sense to me. A microscope is supposed to be "perfectly analytical".)
 
On a broader note, I believe that a lot of the reason "objectivists" and "subjectivists" often disagree so loudly is that they are assuming different meanings for terms like this... and I take this as an example. Another prime example of this is "rhythm and pace". In point of fact, rhythm and pace refer to time functions. While a certain amplifier may in fact make it sound as if a certain piece of music is "less lively", an amplifier will never actually alter the timing - and a simple measurement can confirm this. Therefore, no amplifier can ever possibly alter the rhythm or pace of a piece of music, and saying that one does is simply untrue - and quite misleading. (If you want to be accurate, and not say something that technically makes no sense, then you would say that the amplifier alters the sound in some way that makes it sound to the listener as if the rhythm and pace had been altered. This puts the claim fairly in the realm of a subjective difference, which may well be due to some objective difference, rather than of a claim of an objective difference that simply makes no sense - and, since it makes no sense, is of little use in figuring out what's really happening.)
 
Jul 16, 2015 at 12:45 PM Post #6,273 of 6,500
   
I think you've got it completely right.
 
My point, though, is that a lot of audiophiles seem to confuse accurate with "overly analytical". You're quite right; anti-aliasing is often used with screen fonts, because it usually makes them easier to read - but you still wouldn't refer to the anti-aliased version as being more accurate. It is in fact a "euphonic visual distortion". You also generally wouldn't refer to anti-aliasing in the more general sense when describing it. (A graphic artist might say "that font is easier to read if I apply a bit of anti-aliasing", but very few would say "I kind of like the way fuzzy monitors look". Therefore, to me, when someone says that a certain device sounds "too analytical", I kind of assume that either:
 
a) they're using the term to mean that it reveals too many details accurately - in which case it translates as "too perfect" (and, to me, there's no such thing as "too perfect"). 
 
b) they're saying that it over-emphasizes details - in which case it isn't at all "too perfect"; rather it's unnaturally exaggerating details, which is simply an imperfection of exaggerating details (a flaw)
 
I guess the term and usage just bug me because it seems to be one of the many ways in which something which, at least to me, seems like an objective claim, is used to describe something subjective. (To me, an amplifier, or a headphone, has a specific job - and it should do it as well as possible. Therefore, to me, saying that a headphone amp is "too analytical" makes no more sense than saying that a good microscope is "too analytical" or the picture on your TV is "too sharp". I can imagine a microscope that is fuzzy, or one that exaggerates the edges of things, but I can't imagine how one could be "too analytical" - the idea simply doesn't make sense to me. A microscope is supposed to be "perfectly analytical".)
 
On a broader note, I believe that a lot of the reason "objectivists" and "subjectivists" often disagree so loudly is that they are assuming different meanings for terms like this... and I take this as an example. Another prime example of this is "rhythm and pace". In point of fact, rhythm and pace refer to time functions. While a certain amplifier may in fact make it sound as if a certain piece of music is "less lively", an amplifier will never actually alter the timing - and a simple measurement can confirm this. Therefore, no amplifier can ever possibly alter the rhythm or pace of a piece of music, and saying that one does is simply untrue - and quite misleading. (If you want to be accurate, and not say something that technically makes no sense, then you would say that the amplifier alters the sound in some way that makes it sound to the listener as if the rhythm and pace had been altered. This puts the claim fairly in the realm of a subjective difference, which may well be due to some objective difference, rather than of a claim of an objective difference that simply makes no sense - and, since it makes no sense, is of little use in figuring out what's really happening.)

 
I see now.  And I have to say, I agree about your views on the word analytical to an extent.  But then again, whenever I read opinions on these forums, I always assume the implied "in my opinion" or "for my tastes", etc.  "Too analytical" makes no sense.  "Too analytical for my preferences" makes perfect sense.  As you mentioned, a very analytical sound with a bad source recording could sound pretty bad... as anyone would expect.  And as you mentioned, getting an imperfect amp or DAC to make up for your poor source quality seems like a silly way to go.  But hey, lots of people like tube amps; who am I to judge.
 
To your point about PRAT, I couldn't agree more.  As a drummer, I know that there's literally no possible way your DAC, amp or headphones could change those things.  But I really like when people use that term because it lets me know I can disregard their entire review.  :-D
 
Jul 16, 2015 at 12:52 PM Post #6,274 of 6,500
The thing you're missing is that all of this depends on the designer and their implementation of a chip. 
 
A TV can definitely be too sharp (hence why there is a sharpness setting):
 

 
I think the comparisons made in the article I snagged the above image from are especially applicable to DACs, and any other electronics in the audio chain: What does the wrong picture look like?
 
Someone may prefer the picture on the right as it adds more pseudo-detail and may initially grab your eye more, but that doesn't mean it is more accurate. 
 
Jul 16, 2015 at 3:53 PM Post #6,275 of 6,500
It sounds like what you're talking about is the audio version of what gamers call anti-aliasing on graphics cards.  Why wouldn't something like that work well in audio if it works okay in video?  I can certainly see going overboard with it similar to how newer TV's will interpolate entire frames, giving the much-debated "soap opera effect".  But I'd think a little bit of anti-aliasing (where you average the differences between two given samples and stick and extra sample in between to smooth out the transition) could sound good if done right.

My understanding (mostly from reading the tech-y stuff posted to this thread) is that the sample data isn't directly used like pixel data, but instead represent points on the original waveform and are used with a time-based formula to recreate the original analog waveform (see https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulse-code_modulation). How well they do that is why this thread is so long.
 
Jul 16, 2015 at 7:39 PM Post #6,276 of 6,500
   
Maybe the Audio-GD DAC-19? Unless you're interested in Chinese DACs based off the old Philips TDA chips...but I would not expect particularly good performance out of anything like that, especially TDA1543-based. You might like the tone? A lot of those are also NOS (non-oversampled), which can be pretty hit and miss with some people. Seems it's a minority that prefers NOS. Granted, I have seen some people try those cheapy 1543 NOS DACs that still end up liking them enough to move on to and primarily use nicer R2R DACs, vintage or otherwise.

 
Objectively, would the DAC-19 be better than for example a TransDAC, Parasound or the Adcom600?
 
Jul 17, 2015 at 1:11 AM Post #6,277 of 6,500
 
I see now.  And I have to say, I agree about your views on the word analytical to an extent.  But then again, whenever I read opinions on these forums, I always assume the implied "in my opinion" or "for my tastes", etc.  "Too analytical" makes no sense.  "Too analytical for my preferences" makes perfect sense.  As you mentioned, a very analytical sound with a bad source recording could sound pretty bad... as anyone would expect.  And as you mentioned, getting an imperfect amp or DAC to make up for your poor source quality seems like a silly way to go.  But hey, lots of people like tube amps; who am I to judge.
 
To your point about PRAT, I couldn't agree more.  As a drummer, I know that there's literally no possible way your DAC, amp or headphones could change those things.  But I really like when people use that term because it lets me know I can disregard their entire review.  :-D

 
I totally disagree with your point about timing. To me (and in my experience), this is the key difference between the two technologies; R-2R is simply more musical, because it seems to be better at conveying rhythmic complexities, that DS even just misses. Since changing to r2r I've even, on one occasion (so far), noticed a more complex tune in some percussion, on a very familiar track (Paranoid Android), that I'd only previously noticed as a simpler beat.
 
I'm not saying that it's normal for equipment to change the timing of the music, but I certainly think that different components, even cables, can change the way that the music is perceived, and that includes the timing. I found that R-2R and D-S are extreme examples of this.
 
 
Regarding this ridiculous, quoting and re-quoting long posts, discussion about the meaning of a bl**dy adjective:
 
Firstly, I think that unless someone is trying to state something a some kind of proven fact, every written word is opinion; I think it's more of an onus to state, to justify, why something is a fact, rather than needing to clarify that it's just a personal opinion. (Although, sometimes it's helpful to soften the tone or your words.)
 
To the point: (As I think Stillhart implies) If someone mentions, in a review, that a sound is 'analytical', I'd read it as 'over-analytical'; a deviation from accurate or true to the recording; that's why they've mentioned it. This is a negative in the same way that the use of the term 'under-analytical' would be. Otherwise, surely they'd say 'accurate' (or one of its synonyms). Wouldn't they???
 
If you are to use the word as an adverb (analytically), or as an adjective to describe the way that you can listen, then that is different. e.g. the sound reproduction is so accurate that you can listen quite analytically (or in a very analytical manner).
 
I don't particularly mean you Stillhart, but if you all want to go on patting each other on the back, whilst you re-post entire ambiguous comments, I'm having no further part of it.
 
Jul 17, 2015 at 1:33 AM Post #6,278 of 6,500
   
I totally disagree with your point about timing. To me (and in my experience), this is the key difference between the two technologies; R-2R is simply more musical, because it seems to be better at conveying rhythmic complexities, that DS even just misses. Since changing to r2r I've even, on one occasion (so far), noticed a more complex tune in some percussion, on a very familiar track (Paranoid Android), that I'd only previously noticed as a simpler beat.

 
To suggest that you just listened more attentively would be a totally crazy idea, wouldn't it?  
 
Jul 17, 2015 at 1:52 AM Post #6,279 of 6,500
 
To suggest that you just listened more attentively would be a totally crazy idea, wouldn't it?  

 
Absolutely. To suggest that I listened less attentively would also be crazy. Wouldn't it?
 
Jul 17, 2015 at 2:29 AM Post #6,280 of 6,500
   
Objectively, would the DAC-19 be better than for example a TransDAC, Parasound or the Adcom600?

 
I haven't heard the TransDAC or Parasound, but I have the DAC-19 and the GDA-600.  The DAC-19 is definitely better than the GDA-600.  Based purely on what I've read about the Parasound and TransDAC (so take it for what it's worth) it's better than those too.  You have to move up to something like the Theta Basic II to get something that sounds equivalent to the DAC-19.
 
Jul 17, 2015 at 4:54 AM Post #6,282 of 6,500
 
"If you have never noticed this "more complex tune in some percussion" before it doesn't matter it's not there when listening to a DS DAC. We tend to not notice a lot of things in music, our attention is limited."

Edit: If you have never noticed this "more complex tune in some percussion" before it doesn't mean it's not there when listening to a DS DAC. We tend to not notice a lot of things in music, our attention is limited. 

You were right the first time. 
wink_face.gif

 
And your point: (I guess about experiences and perception being both finite and variable) I think that repetition and familiarity, over a long period of time, go a long way to counteracting this.
 
Jul 17, 2015 at 5:25 AM Post #6,284 of 6,500
If your volume knob is broken then maybe. Volume massively affects the perception of music.

I refer the Honourable Gentlemen to the answer I gave, previously.
 
Jul 17, 2015 at 5:30 AM Post #6,285 of 6,500
I've already described some of my thoughts on the Schiit Modi 1 vs Metrum Quad in another thread, so rather than crossposting here's the link: http://www.head-fi.org/t/735828/gustard-h10-high-current-discrete-class-a-output-stage-headphone-amplifier/2730#post_11767056
 
I was surprised to read the Topic Starters' specific opinion on the Modi and Quad. Particularly how the Quad was too polite for him, while he at the same time liked the Modi a lot. The Modi is a lot more polite to my ears. Then again, he was using the Modi with the Wyrd. I wasn't. And I was using the Quad with the seperate PSU and a decent USB / SPDIF converter. Perhaps those chain differences polarized my findings of these 2 DAC's further than it did for him. In any case, the Quad sounded anything but polite to me and at €275 for the DAC + PSU second hand, I find it just as much on overachiever as the Modi 1 is for €50 second hand. 
 
What I'll do is test the Quad without the PSU, and see if that makes an audible difference. The Quad can also be fed directly from an adaptor. If it doesn't, I have a good reason for selling the PSU again, and I would have to conclude that the USB / SPDIF converter is largely responsible for the increased Quad performance, or the Wyrd improves things a lot for its money 
 

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