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Thoughts on a bunch of DACs (and why delta-sigma kinda sucks, just to get you to think about stuff)

Discussion in 'Dedicated Source Components' started by purrin, Dec 5, 2013.
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  1. Stillhart
     
    Post redacted because I get the feeling you're trolling me.
     
    conquerator2 likes this.
  2. wahsmoh

    Hehe well the Progeny is technically a DAC under $1000. ($995 listed MSRP in 1994) try building it with todays inflation at that price lmao. btw there is one on eBay that has already hit $300 + shipping and it isn't even the version A. These things really hold value too.
     
    btw just plugged in the Bifrost Uber and took a listen.. I was saddened.. I mean it doesn't sound harsh but then when the cymbals come crashing down and the "studio magic" like the effects and separation of instruments starts to become noticeable the Bifrost is lacking and doesn't have as clear and defined image and "black space" defining certain sounds. The Bifrost Uber starts to mash instruments together when passages get really complex. I listened for 5 minutes and couldn't take it anymore and hooked up the Progeny again now permanently
     
  3. Priidik
    Multibit PCM dacs can be done under 500$, the time is just yet to come because majority is happy with S-D. 
    Diy guys have done it with discrete means, now picture a whole modern chip dedicated to audio. 
     
  4. estreeter
     
    FWIW the Inflation Calculator has 995 1994 dollars at $1575 in 2015, but given that every cost in the supply chain would have gone up I suspect we'd be talking something closer to the projected sticker on the Yggy. If they can sort the filter issues with the Soekris board that might be a more feasible ~1K R2R DAC in 2015, but the DiY guys rarely attempt to factor in the cost of their labor in any such build. If something costs $800 in parts, it doesnt seem to matter how many hours went into the design or any subsequent refinements - that's an '$800 DAC' to many DiYers. Still its an interesting project to follow - it will also be interesting to see if anyone else is prepared to do something similar commercially. 
     
    http://www.usinflationcalculator.com
     
  5. wahsmoh

    I recall Mike mentioning the number of Yggys they plan on producing. It goes into the thousands I think.. so that is the only way to make something like that profitable is to make a ton of them and streamline the process as much as they can
     
  6. mikek200
    And,if you remember,how many years the Yiggy was in its planning stage,long before ,it began to actually start to be built.
    How much would it cost us today...$4-5K??
    So,if Jason does list it next week,and all the 250 units sell in 1 month,we won't be getting any   feedback ,for at least another month,maybe?
    Having Jason give us a "state of the Art" dac for $2299-,is simply amazing...IMHO.
    Just a few  wrinkles to iron out,that's all.
     
  7. purrin
     
    Price is always a factor. Go down the list in the first post and realize the cost of some of the D-S DACs. $8000, $6000, $4000, $3000, etc. I have hunch we may see more R2R DACs at lower prices. Other manufacturers will take note of what Schiit is doing. I can see Analog Devices realize the high volume of sales of the AD5791 and decide to make a high precision chip for audio. Will it always be as cheap at D-S DACs? Probably not. But I see no reason once R2R chips become more widely available and easily used for audio, a company like Emotiva can't make a $799 DAC. Moffat during his presentation at CanJam already hinted at Bifrost and Gungnir while wearing this "Delta-Sigma, when music doesn't matter" T-shirt.
     
    GoldfishX likes this.
  8. hodgjy
    Wait, what? Are you suggesting there may be trickle down upgrades to Bifrost and Gungnir?
     
  9. kugino Contributor

    sounds like it to me. 
     
  10. Stillhart
     
    Why wouldn't there be?  Isn't that the whole point of touting the upgradability of those DAC's?
     
  11. hodgjy
    That's what I was thinking, but isn't the DA converter hardwired to the PCB? I thought the cards were only for the output stage and USB input stage. I could be wrong, though.
     
  12. kugino Contributor

    per schiit's site:
     
     
    murrays likes this.
  13. negura
    I took my time with commenting on my experience, but a while ago I felt like taking the punt to buy a Theta DAC, even if just to see if Purrin is talking out his arse basically. And because, well I bought more stupid and more expensive products in the past, so why not.
     
    I was lucky enough to get my hands on my first Gen V A about 5-6 months ago, while owning the PWD2. The latter was a DAC I really enjoyed. It is difficult to convey to my friends who have not experienced an R2R DAC at any length, why I think the R2R sound is a transformational experience. To me it is NOT just another DAC.
     
    I will start with what I did not fully know bothered me. One of the greatest assets R2R brings to the table is that treble response is a completely different experience. No matter what headphones or speakers. It just is no longer harsh, grainy or in the slightest unpleasant at any level. No matter what. You can try really hard. Throw silver at it. I did.
    Stax SR-009 a walk in the park - absolute love even with poor recordings.
    HE-6 - why would anyone in the world consider these headphones to have even the slightest brightness.
     
    On the PWD2, which is one of the decent sounding S/Ds, sometimes I still had tune my system so it sounds nice enough for me in the treble, even with the Audeze LCD-3s. And that is not one of the brightest S/D DACs by a large margin imo.
     
    And now the shock as it may be. The macro detail on the Theta R2R DAC was actually on par with the PWD2. Yes, one can have both: perfectly detailed yet natural, non-aggresive treble response AND overall great detail. 
     
    However all this to me is only the tip of the iceberg. Actually my first reaction to the Theta, was more like.... holy f*** the bass response and sound stage holography. Those are immediate. They always are with any gear though, when it's there. Comparatively the PWD2 sounded hollow. To most other S/D DACs I heard it was not. The R2R DAC also has this amazing natural body and tonal purity. A piano sounds so real and so does a violin. I did not used to think of it that way, but I almost had an instinctive fast forward reflex to trumpet heavy tracks. But yes, they actually can and should be enjoyable. To some extent one could almost get to re-remember how instruments actually sound and what has been missed.
     
    Now about the Yggdrasil, I could be in two minds. From one perspective, I was not impressed by the Ragnarok, which was another very hyped product, so I could easily be biased. To me the Ragnarok sounded almost veiled, by having that added smoothness layer that I found it has. I kept reading about the clarity and resolution it has. I did not find that, comparatively, with either my speaker amp, the Audio GD HE-9 or the Moon 430HA. All those amps I found to be more resolute, more clear, more articulate, more transparent. Yet all sounding very different from each other. To be fair the Ragnarok is priced OK for what it offers. No wonder product there for me though.
     
    However, this should have little to do with the DAC product. A modern day R2R DAC at a palatable price is more than welcome by me. I think I will buy it right away, even if to support a point made. I want more R2R DACs out there.
     
    korzena, dan.gheorghe and olor1n like this.
  14. hodgjy
    Cool. Thanks for the clarification. 
     
  15. reddog
    A uber Gungnir hmmm. That would be fantastic.
     
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