[MaloS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Contrastique /img/forum/go_quote.gif Haven't heard the hd600 balanced yet. Missed out on that oppurtunity once . Haven't heard the hd600 out of a master-setup either, only the Larocco with ipod or MOTU soundcard and laptop. It could be that the slowness is because of the SE-thingy. I would love to hear them balanced one day so I can revise my opinion on them so that they at least CAN sound good to my ears (a little). When I said bright with the ed9 I didn't mean bright like bright bright but couldn't find a more suitable word for what I was trying to say. More forward is maybe what I tried to say...

You meant treble energy, which is not brightness exactly. That is more or less property of the speed of the headphone, and since hd600 in SE mode is fairly slow, it can seem veiled in the treble. When it goes balanced the treble energy improves considerably. So ya, you hit it spot on when you said 'because of SE'. Notice, me and you also use considerably different level of sources. HD600 with a high level source even in single-ended mode, with a good recording can have fairly good treble energy. Its just that not very many amplifiers can get it to sound forward and aggressive. (Ray Samuels tunes his amps with HD600 so it is easy to explain why with a Raptor it was pretty neutral and actually quite forward-sounding).

 

[Sovkiller]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lamprologus /img/forum/go_quote.gif I do however agree that Ultrasone prices differ too much between Europe and the US, I'm not sure why Ultrasone want it that way. If you pay more than the US street price from your distributor, something is definitely wrong.

Grado has the same policy, not only Ultrasone, that isa common proctice, IMO just due to the fact that Europe and US are two different markets and two different life styles, though the difference in prices...
Do you imagine what will happen if the Europeans stop paying what they pay for gas, and want to pay what we pay here...Do you imagine a European with a Hummer H2...must be nuts!!!!

Things in Europe tend to be a lot more expensive, I was in Germany once, and have friend in Italy and Spain, and I can tell you VAT, taxes, etc, are different (and I'm ssuming they make more than us here, otherwise how can they afford that expensive lifestyle)

Also for example for a company in Europe to sell product in US nowadays is not very profitable, as to pay for parts in Euros, and later on sell the final product, at a competitive price in US, in a devaluated currency, is not easy for them...Shipping overseas is very expensive, as well, etc...But they have there the VAT who kill them as well, so it is trade off, but definitelly they are two completelly different markets...

About the price of the Edition, it is $1499.99 retail, regardless of where you get them, if you find a dealer that is willing to take a bump and make less good for you, but do not expect less than $1,100.00 as a general rule you will not find them for less than that price...

 

[stevenkelby]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lamprologus /img/forum/go_quote.gif That's a pity, NSL don't ship outside of the US.

As I did, maybe you can make a post here asking if anyone in the US is willing to have your ED( delivered to them and forward them on to you. There are lots of very helpful people here!

However, that's not the right thing to do, you should buy from someone like Hans, who is trying to make a living.

Only a small fraction of people realise that things can be had cheaper over the net in other markets, we are circumventing the system. I don't know who's fault it is or if it's right but I want to pay as little as possible.

 

[ldj325]

Quote:
Originally Posted by ldj325
Now I just need an $8K CD player.


Quote:

Originally Posted by 4N6 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Audio Research Reference CD7

Great, now I only need the $8K.

 

[Contrastique]

Quote:

Originally Posted by hoosterw /img/forum/go_quote.gif But it is more the injustice about wanting to 'battle' on the same grounds but not being able to and this is the third time I am confronted with this, so I am just a little frustrated. I am trying to run a local shop and deliver service but internet pricing just make it impossible to survive.

Yep, same story in our field as well and it is very frustrating indeed. When people want info or want to check things out, you're good enough for that and when they decide to buy they buy from the internet. It is just impossible to compete with that, certainly when your distributors price is higher than were they sell it for in the US / internet and the margin is low.
I was also thinking what to do if I have the money to buy the ed9. It's a big differ in price. Since I find myself in the same position as you are in, the only thing I can justify for myself is to grant you the sale.

I once bought 2 cds on the internet and I felt so guilty. That's what will kill the local shops wich are more fun anyways. So I decided I'd never do that again. If the local shops dissapear all will be lost and inpersonality will predominate, if not already...

Good luck Hans

 

[hoosterw]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Contrastique /img/forum/go_quote.gif Yep, same story in our field as well and it is very frustrating indeed. When people want info or want to check things out, you're good enough for that and when they decide to buy they buy from the internet. It is just impossible to compete with that, certainly when your distributors price is higher than were they sell it for in the US / internet and the margin is low. I was also thinking what to do if I have the money to buy the ed9. It's a big differ in price. Since I find myself in the same position as you are in, the only thing I can justify for myself is to grant you the sale. I once bought 2 cds on the internet and I felt so guilty. That's what will kill the local shops wich are more fun anyways. So I decided I'd never do that again. If the local shops dissapear all will be lost and inpersonality will predominate, if not already... Good luck Hans

Thanks Indra. In principle I don't blame the customer, if he can get a good deal why not?

It is the trade as a whole that should take care that some good things survive.
Like many specialist small companies (eg that sell good cheese and wine) they don't belong in the internet. You need the opportunity to taste and smell. Get the "experience" if you know what I mean.

That should be preserved and that can only be if you can make a (small) living.

But like you, I am afraid that a lot has already dissapeared and with it a lot of the fun.

Anyway Thanks for your confidence in me! I will try and keep running against the flow for it is a lot of FUN!!!.

BTW I have fed this discussion/thread back to the distributor and Ultrasone with a big warning! Short term profits have lead nearly always in the long term to the sinking of the ship

.

Rgds Hans.

 

[Contrastique]

Quote:

Originally Posted by hoosterw /img/forum/go_quote.gif Thanks Indra. In principle I don't blame the customer, if he can get a good deal why not?

I do blame the costumer a bit. It's not just fighting internet but also fighting Mediamarkt for example in my situation. They come to us for info and after 1 hour or so of explaining stuff to them they go like, I would like to buy but Mediamarkt sells it for 20 to 50 euros cheaper....Screw the costumer for making me feel used. And sometimes they take off and buy it there.
But what they don't realise is that when we dissapear because of such things and the Mediamarkt is left with a monopoly position, they will raise their prices and the costumer looses for real.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hoosterw /img/forum/go_quote.gif It is the trade as a whole that should take care that some good things survive. Like many specialist small companies (eg that sell good cheese and wine) they don't belong in the internet. You need the opportunity to taste and smell. Get the "experience" if you know what I mean.

They won't be killed by internet indeed but by the big supermarkets. Leaves the costumer to be blamed again. They decide where to buy and if they buy that at a supermarket all the time they keep the big companies rollin' and the small ones left to die.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hoosterw /img/forum/go_quote.gif Anyway Thanks for your confidence in me! I will try and keep running against the flow for it is a lot of FUN!!!.

Thanx! That's good to hear! You have my support

Quote:

Originally Posted by hoosterw /img/forum/go_quote.gif BTW I have fed this discussion/thread back to the distributor and Ultrasone with a big warning! Short term profits have lead nearly always in the long term to the sinking of the ship .

Looking forward to their reaction..

Forgive me if I sound a little too pessimistic regarding the costumer..frustration spoke a little here

Maybe Ultrasone maintains different prices to be competitive in the US. Here they sell for their actual targetprice and make "maximum" profit. If you would convert that price to dollars and sell it there, it wouldn't be bought since the price would be way over the rest of the hps being sold there. Same as with the Grados...maybe...

 

[Sovkiller]

In the case of the Ultrasone, Indra, that does not apply AFAIK, small headphone manufacturers give the small dealers that same dealers price as Mediamark (I don't know if Mediamark sells them in the first instance, I would like to ask my friend in Germany) if they can afford one price the dealer could as well...if not stop carrying them and period...that is the market law...

And honestly to blame a customer for choosing to buy in the place while prices are better, is rather silly, everybody does that, that is why those places exist, to offer the customers good prices, and you can go and save...

What a dealer have to do, is, why they know that Mediamark or any other big store carry a given product, just stop carrying them and tell the distributor that you will not offer them anymore, as Mediamark sells it for less, and you can not go lower, while all dealers stop buying products from the distributors, they will have two options, or lower their price to the small dealers, or stop selling them via the big stores, they can not survive selling only at one place, for big that it will be...

 

[Contrastique]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sovkiller /img/forum/go_quote.gif In the case of the Ultrasone, Indra, that does not apply AFAIK, small headphone manufacturers give the small dealers that same dealers price as Mediamark (I don't know if Mediamark sells them in the first instance, I would like to ask my friend in Germany) if they can afford one price the dealer could as well...if not stop carrying them and period...that is the market law...

It could be that they charge Mediamakt and small dealers the same price for a hp. We sell cameras and that goes a little different sometimes.
Mediamarkt for example buys refurbished cameras and sell them for cheaper. Mediamarkt Maastricht strategy is on top of that to make a loss of 1 million each year for the first 3 years to kill all competition. They often sold their cameras with loss just to get people in their store. It's an unfair policy regarding our position. And when you go in there you usually also walk out the door with other stuff wich is part of their marketing stragety for making profit in another way.
If we have a camera we can sell for a real decent price and is lower than Mediamarkt can sell it for, they contact the distributor complaining about our price. Then the distributor calls us and we have to change the price otherwise it would be unfair. What????? If the story goes the other way around we can suck it up. It's a bloody struggle every day.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sovkiller /img/forum/go_quote.gif And honestly to blame a customer for choosing to buy in the place while prices are better, is rather silly, everybody does that, that is why those places exist, to offer the customers good prices, and you can go and save...

Not so silly if they first come to us for the explanation while they already are aware of our bigger pricetag. If you want a discount, ask before we put our time in you, not after. And when they buy from a cheaper shop and afterwards they don't get the service they want they come to us, expecting us to solve it for them or explain to them how their product works. Screw the costumer in that case.
For example, once came in a lady who bought a dslr on the internet. Product went broke and the internet companie was unreachable. So she comes to us demanding to exchange her camera for a new one, because we sell that type of camera...Ignorant, stupid, blond, i don't know, but bloody rude it was.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sovkiller /img/forum/go_quote.gif What a dealer have to do, is, why they know that Mediamark or any other big store carry a given product, just stop carrying them and tell the distributor that you will not offer them anymore, as Mediamark sells it for less, and you can not go lower, while all dealers stop buying products from the distributors, they will have two options, or lower their price to the small dealers, or stop selling them via the big stores, they can not survive selling only at one place, for big that it will be...

If we had to stop carrying the products the bigger companies do, there wouldn't be a product to carry for us...Plus the distributor makes more money from a Mediamarkt than from us. We are the only small professional dealer in our region, so if we would say such a thing to a distributor they would laugh at us and we can close our doors.

 

[hoosterw]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Contrastique /img/forum/go_quote.gif Maybe Ultrasone maintains different prices to be competitive in the US. Here they sell for their actual targetprice and make "maximum" profit. If you would convert that price to dollars and sell it there, it wouldn't be bought since the price would be way over the rest of the hps being sold there. Same as with the Grados...maybe...

There was a time that EU 'top price' sales could fund the companies competitive pricing in the US, but those days are over. The market is too open en too transpparent nowadays.

Price differences between markets/countries/area's is known and will always be so, but they have to be acceptable.
1100US$ and 1499euro is simply not acceptable.
25, max 30% is ok, we/I could live with that.

Another nice example is Ultimate Ears. My purchasing price for the UE11 is 899euro, excluding VAT that is.

If I only add VAT the customer sales price is 1070euro, being around 1450US$. Regular US sales? about 1100US$ I guess. And then I have not earned a single dime.

Beat me up Scotty!.

Hans.

 

[Lamprologus]

Quote:

Originally Posted by hoosterw /img/forum/go_quote.gif Hi Lamprologus, I am sorry it sounded like a 'personal attack'. It was not meant that way. If indeed you can find a good price, just take it. I would do the same. But it is more the injustice about wanting to 'battle' on the same grounds but not being able to and this is the third time I am confronted with this, so I am just a little frustrated. I am trying to run a local shop and deliver service but internet pricing just make it impossible to survive. Sorry! Hans

Not a problem, and I fully understand your frustration.

I remember talking to the owner of a local record shop sometime when shopping over the net became more usual. He said that some Internet shops sold a certain new release to a price that was lower than what he paid the distributor. Needless to say, that record shop closed within a few years. Sadly, today there is no local record shop where I live.

There is a risk that the same will happen to those selling hifi, unless the customers realize that service is important and is worth the extra cost. Shops will also have to realize that they need to offer something extra to the customers. I've been to too many shops where they are willing to order for me but only if I have already decided to buy.

 

[Dexdexter]

Just noticed that Hans is now offering threaded mini-plugs for PROline cables:

More info in the Qables sponsor forum.

 

[ldj325]

Quote:

Originally Posted by hoosterw /img/forum/go_quote.gif Thanks Indra. In principle I don't blame the customer, if he can get a good deal why not? BTW I have fed this discussion/thread back to the distributor and Ultrasone with a big warning! Short term profits have lead nearly always in the long term to the sinking of the ship . Rgds Hans.

Hans, none of my post is being directed at you personally as you seem like a nice guy. Because of the social services structure in many European countries, you shouldn't be able to sell for what something can sell in the US. I am specifically referring the VAT. I am not knocking the social/government services as it may be a lot more humane than here, but US citizens should not have their costs raised for services that exist in Europe but not here. I don't know if there is an income tax in Europe, but there is one here that may further reduces the profit margins (and for the consumer more pre-tax dollars must be earned than the dollars that are left over for purchases). So all this might be factored in.

But my greatest concern is that you took information from this forum and "reported it" to Ultrasone. While there is no law (or forum rule that I know about) against this, it strikes me as somehow "off" in terms of the spirit of this forum. This forum only has a purpose in existing for the members (rather than owner or product sponsors) if there is a free flow of information that is available here that is beyond the product sales literature. (And there is a social aspect for the members as well.) Both of these aspects can get compromised if stuff from here starts getting "reported." Suddenly folks are liabel to fee less free to share information (I know I've already felt it). If that happens too much this forum dies. If all that happens is that we get marketed to here what's the point.

IMO the real strength of Head-fi is the knowledge of the members that gets shared freely, with some augmentation by sponsors/builders (and neither the owner nor sponsors "pay" for that knowledge). This is supported by the owner via the infrastructure which has associated costs. But Audio Asylum is doing pretty good with a lot less sponsor dollars. So if it is a user thread, and you're going to participate on it, you might want to line up with the purposes for the user, or stay in a sponsored thread that you pay for.

I would gather that others, as well as myself, have enjoyed your participation here. But I wouldn't enjoy that participation by you or anyone else is it involves having to be concerned that someone will go "tell the authorities."

Again, nothing against your personally, but unless something is really out of line legally, IMO member posts and business ought to stay as member business.

 

[stevenkelby]

I don't know LDJ, even though I am aware of Hans's position, I see him as supporting the European cinsumers. I don't think he is complaining about US being cheap, but about EU being expensive. It is the priffiteering by Ultrasone he seems to be concerned with (over and above the reasonable, expected increase due to VAT etc).

If NSL get in trouble with Ultrasone, that;s their fault for selling too cheap, not ours. Although it may lead to more expensive headphones for US buyers if Ultrasone do something about it, I think that's a fair price to pay for living in a free market. Really, it's Ultrasone and the whole industry to blame, not Hans.

I am probably wrong but that's how I see it.

 

[Contrastique]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ldj325 /img/forum/go_quote.gif I would gather that others, as well as myself, have enjoyed your participation here. But I wouldn't enjoy that participation by you or anyone else is it involves having to be concerned that someone will go "tell the authorities."

Hey Laurence,
I don't think it is about "telling the authorities". They already know about the pricediffers. I was thinking myself to contact Ultrasone Germany and asking them why the pricediffers are so huge. Not to attack them but to get a satisfying answer since it really wondered me.
I believe Hans meant the same only his commercial feelings played along in his comment. Nothing wrong with that. I think it's also not bad when costumers see the point of a dealer instead of just seeing things from their own perspective.

Yes, we do have an income-tax. And no, prices in the US should not increase, prices in Europe should be lower, otherwise there's no win-win situation.