[phiemon]

Happy with more height than width, Mentor had the most incredible tall images I've ever heard. It's easy to make a wide soundstage, it's harder to make tall images. I hated the OG trailli for this reason, artificially stretched stage-didn't wow me just made everything sound thin, veiled, far away and lifeless. I think the idea that a stage has to be super wide to be a good stage is not true, would much rather have a smaller stage with mentor like images with clear separation than a stretched thin stage.

On the contrary, I found Apx SE to be very wide, tall enough, but unfortunately not very deep (for me the reason why it is comparatively not that holographic).

Traillii: no idea what you heard there, but for me it's anything but “thin, veiled, far away and lifeless”. I hear exactly the opposite.

Even if it's never really a consensus, I think that Traillii needs power, otherwise it sounds exactly as you described it. The main reason could be the EST drivers, a bit like Anni. With more power, Trailli opens up considerably and it's much more resolving. Still, it has much more separation than Mentor which separates less sharp and sounds thinner in comparison. Nothing is artificially here, just still the best timbre and one of the best technicalities I have ever heard - despite the age. But yeah, MM is the most holographic IEM for me.

 

[tresvigint]

Got to say I’m loooving the collection! The VE Aura with that cable look like a beautiful combo

Audio effect fushion cable
Make aura more 3D, but still need right eartips to show the 3d and nice vocal
2 iem vision ears, both very hard to find the right eartips, but very very good
Its my dream sound TBH, when I first hear it I said why other IEM dont sound like this?

Happy with more height than width, Mentor had the most incredible tall images I've ever heard. It's easy to make a wide soundstage, it's harder to make tall images. I hated the OG trailli for this reason, artificially stretched stage-didn't wow me just made everything sound thin, veiled, far away and lifeless. I think the idea that a stage has to be super wide to be a good stage is not true, would much rather have a smaller stage with mentor like images with clear separation than a stretched thin stage.

Thats why i switch back to original cable for APX SE, agree with wide soundstage not always good option

Why not go for something custom like ALT-R
https://www.instagram.com/reel/C8MLjX8vfwI/

Its too big, like the apx se leather case it can be used as iem case (but that case can hold 15 iems LOL too big for me)

 

[drftr]

but that case can hold 15 iems LOL too big for me

Indeed that's how most of us start...

drftr

 

[Rolu]

This is the HBB collaboration? How is it?

Yeah but my custom colorway.
Just heard it for 15mins until now. The mids and treble sound very similar to the 7th AE but the bass is massively boosted. It's a basshead IEM for sure but still tasteful. Soundstage is better too. More thoughts to follow.

 

[Deezel177]

Could you guys educate me why are there not a lot of cheap (lets say under 200) iems with “neutral” sound (let’s say like Vision Ears 7) which would cater to musicians? Is it that this kind of graph sucks for regular music listening or is it difficult to achieve? Or am I just looking at wrong iems?

From a rookie standpoint I don’t understand why chinese companies don’t market themselves to musicians, seems they could disrupt the whole musician iem market hugely.

I’m not an audiophile so sorry if I’m talking nonsense.

They don’t get mentioned here a lot, because most of the attention/discussion naturally gravitates towards the latest and greatest. But, if you look at brands like Alclair (in the US), FatFreq and AAW (in Singapore) or Avara Custom (in Indonesia), there are lots of affordable, musician-oriented, custom IEMs with great designs and tech. Above them are the 64’s, JH’s and UE’s of the world, whose lower-end models are around the $400-500 range, I think.

The reason Chi-Fi brands don’t dabble in musician endorsements is because it takes way more than just product to cater to professionals. They need to have a dedicated representative, who’ll talk to the artist, gather feedback, etc. And, they need a dedicated team who’ll handle matters like, for example, last-minute repairs for an artist who’ll be performing the next day, or rush orders for a band on the other side of the world, etc. Whereas, the focus for most Chi-Fi brands is maximum production and minimal communication. Their dealers handle basically all of their after-sales services, and they can’t do what’s required of a full-fledged artist relations staff.

As far as sound goes, it really depends on what kind of musician it is. Drummers tend to prefer V-shaped IEMs to emphasize the kick, snare and cymbals, vocalists and guitarists want the opposite for their instruments, etc. The only exception is probably the one you’re talking about, flat/neutral, engineer-oriented IEMs. As an engineer myself, of all the kinds of musicians there are, we’re the ones that need the most technical performance (i.e. imaging accuracy, resolution, etc.), because we need those details to do our job. And, technical performance is the main culprit behind a high IEM price tag. So, for engineers specifically, you do tend to have to spend more. But, if you’ve read my review of Bellos Audio’s $999 X4, you may come to realize they aren’t as unobtainable as you may think.

 

[drftr]

They don’t get mentioned here a lot, because most of the attention/discussion naturally gravitates towards the latest and greatest. But, if you look at brands like Alclair (in the US), FatFreq and AAW (in Singapore) or Avara Custom (in Indonesia), there are lots of affordable, musician-oriented, custom IEMs with great designs and tech. Above them are the 64’s, JH’s and UE’s of the world, whose lower-end models are around the $400-500 range, I think.

The reason Chi-Fi brands don’t dabble in musician endorsements is because it takes way more than just product to cater to professionals. They need to have a dedicated representative, who’ll talk to the artist, gather feedback, etc. And, they need a dedicated team who’ll handle matters like, for example, last-minute repairs for an artist who’ll be performing the next day, or rush orders for a band on the other side of the world, etc. Whereas, the focus for most Chi-Fi brands is maximum production and minimal communication. Their dealers handle basically all of their after-sales services, and they can’t do what’s required of a full-fledged artist relations staff.

As far as sound goes, it really depends on what kind of musician it is. Drummers tend to prefer V-shaped IEMs to emphasize the kick, snare and cymbals, vocalists and guitarists want the opposite for their instruments, etc. The only exception is probably the one you’re talking about, flat/neutral, engineer-oriented IEMs. As an engineer myself, of all the kinds of musicians there are, we’re the ones that need the most technical performance (i.e. imaging accuracy, resolution, etc.), because we need those details to do our job. And, technical performance is the main culprit behind a high IEM price tag. So, for engineers specifically, you do tend to have to spend more. But, if you’ve read my review of Bellos Audio’s $999 X4, you may come to realize they aren’t as unobtainable as you may think.

@782369 In addition to what Daniel wrote and especially since you're from Estonia please have a look at German InEar which produces both lower and high end UIEMs and CIEMs: https://inear.de/en/home

Some of their models like PP8 (ProPhile 8) are true classics. Its FR may just be what your doctor ordered:

drftr

 

[armstrj2]

A quick reminder in case anyone has missed this.

We are having another EU Meet-Up this October in Dublin.

Plans are well underway. We have a fantastic location booked, all the best gear will be there, but most importantly, it will be great to meet everyone in person again and share in our passion for this hobby.

If you think you may be able to make it over or know anyone else who might too, please feel free to get in touch via PM, and I will get you up to speed.

Cheers.

Folks

One final call out in case anyone has missed this.

A group of us are meeting up in Dublin on the weekend of October 18th to 20th.

We are just 5 weeks out now, so if anyone is interested in meeting up with us in Ireland that weekend, send me a PM, and I will share all the details.

Cheers.

 

[782369]

They don’t get mentioned here a lot, because most of the attention/discussion naturally gravitates towards the latest and greatest. But, if you look at brands like Alclair (in the US), FatFreq and AAW (in Singapore) or Avara Custom (in Indonesia), there are lots of affordable, musician-oriented, custom IEMs with great designs and tech. Above them are the 64’s, JH’s and UE’s of the world, whose lower-end models are around the $400-500 range, I think.

The reason Chi-Fi brands don’t dabble in musician endorsements is because it takes way more than just product to cater to professionals. They need to have a dedicated representative, who’ll talk to the artist, gather feedback, etc. And, they need a dedicated team who’ll handle matters like, for example, last-minute repairs for an artist who’ll be performing the next day, or rush orders for a band on the other side of the world, etc. Whereas, the focus for most Chi-Fi brands is maximum production and minimal communication. Their dealers handle basically all of their after-sales services, and they can’t do what’s required of a full-fledged artist relations staff.

As far as sound goes, it really depends on what kind of musician it is. Drummers tend to prefer V-shaped IEMs to emphasize the kick, snare and cymbals, vocalists and guitarists want the opposite for their instruments, etc. The only exception is probably the one you’re talking about, flat/neutral, engineer-oriented IEMs. As an engineer myself, of all the kinds of musicians there are, we’re the ones that need the most technical performance (i.e. imaging accuracy, resolution, etc.), because we need those details to do our job. And, technical performance is the main culprit behind a high IEM price tag. So, for engineers specifically, you do tend to have to spend more. But, if you’ve read my review of Bellos Audio’s $999 X4, you may come to realize they aren’t as unobtainable as you may think.

@782369 In addition to what Daniel wrote and especially since you're from Estonia please have a look at German InEar which produces both lower and high end UIEMs and CIEMs: https://inear.de/en/home

Some of their models like PP8 (ProPhile 8) are true classics. Its FR may just be what your doctor ordered:



drftr

Thanks guys for responding.

I understand not marketing cheap musician iems to top artist but for every Lady Gaga or John Mayer there is 3000 bar bands and gear obsessed musicians in forums exactly like this, obsessing over gear and buying-buying-buying (i’m a part of a large guitar forum and search for the next best overdrive/delay/modeler to throw your money at is as active as ever).

A lot of these guys buy kz stuff (i also use kz as16pro for live monitoring, not bad at all, I have a stereo mix and can eq my monitor mix).

If a chi-fi company would offer something for these people in a 100-200$ price bracket it would probably sell like crazy (maybe one mid centric for guitarists/singers/keyboard players and a different one for bassists and drummers).

I myself ordered the Hisenior t4 customs and hope they turn out well and work in a band context. If they do, I’ll spread the word amongst guitar forums at least because the pricing is really good.

 

[Ace Bee]

I know graphs do not tell the full story, but the Lucifer's graph is the weirdest I have seen compared to my actual listening:

I don't know what this transpires in terms of macrodynamics, but to my ears the macrodynamics is outstanding. The treble extension is indeed pretty good and it matches, but the bass is weird in the graph. Yes sure the midbass slam is powerful and meaty, but not bloated or overly fat at all. And it stays absolutely away from the midrange. The lower mid is amazingly organic yet quite detailed, and the whole midrange is very clean and transparent with a black background.

Maybe other more experienced ones can decipher the graph better? Will certainly appreciate it.

 

[maegnificant]

Thanks guys for responding.

I understand not marketing cheap musician iems to top artist but for every Lady Gaga or John Mayer there is 3000 bar bands and gear obsessed musicians in forums exactly like this, obsessing over gear and buying-buying-buying (i’m a part of a large guitar forum and search for the next best overdrive/delay/modeler to throw your money at is as active as ever).

A lot of these guys buy kz stuff (i also use kz as16pro for live monitoring, not bad at all, I have a stereo mix and can eq my monitor mix).

If a chi-fi company would offer something for these people in a 100-200$ price bracket it would probably sell like crazy (maybe one mid centric for guitarists/singers/keyboard players and a different one for bassists and drummers).

I myself ordered the Hisenior t4 customs and hope they turn out well and work in a band context. If they do, I’ll spread the word amongst guitar forums at least because the pricing is really good.

Honest question, because I am interested: Why use a stereo mix for live performances?

 

[Ckro]

They don’t get mentioned here a lot, because most of the attention/discussion naturally gravitates towards the latest and greatest. But, if you look at brands like Alclair (in the US), FatFreq and AAW (in Singapore) or Avara Custom (in Indonesia), there are lots of affordable, musician-oriented, custom IEMs with great designs and tech. Above them are the 64’s, JH’s and UE’s of the world, whose lower-end models are around the $400-500 range, I think.

The reason Chi-Fi brands don’t dabble in musician endorsements is because it takes way more than just product to cater to professionals. They need to have a dedicated representative, who’ll talk to the artist, gather feedback, etc. And, they need a dedicated team who’ll handle matters like, for example, last-minute repairs for an artist who’ll be performing the next day, or rush orders for a band on the other side of the world, etc. Whereas, the focus for most Chi-Fi brands is maximum production and minimal communication. Their dealers handle basically all of their after-sales services, and they can’t do what’s required of a full-fledged artist relations staff.

As far as sound goes, it really depends on what kind of musician it is. Drummers tend to prefer V-shaped IEMs to emphasize the kick, snare and cymbals, vocalists and guitarists want the opposite for their instruments, etc. The only exception is probably the one you’re talking about, flat/neutral, engineer-oriented IEMs. As an engineer myself, of all the kinds of musicians there are, we’re the ones that need the most technical performance (i.e. imaging accuracy, resolution, etc.), because we need those details to do our job. And, technical performance is the main culprit behind a high IEM price tag. So, for engineers specifically, you do tend to have to spend more. But, if you’ve read my review of Bellos Audio’s $999 X4, you may come to realize they aren’t as unobtainable as you may think.

+1 on the Bellos X4

 

[maegnificant]

+1 on the Bellos X4

They are neither cheap, nor from China though. With the Shure SE846 you get 3/4 filters included at roughly the same price. With a little upcharge (or a little luck) you can get a Westone Mach 80 as well. All USA brands. Shure, Westone and also Sennheiser offer cheaper models for live musicians, too.

But as soon as chinese companies will start to figure out actual customer service, they could make a real impact on the professional market.

 

[782369]

Honest question, because I am interested: Why use a stereo mix for live performances?

Hi.

It’s common practice for musician in ear mixes to be in stereo. That way you can pan instruments the way you like. Usually your own instrument is in the middle while others are panned.
Live experience with in ears is claustrophobic enough, mono mix makes it even worse and when every instrument is on top of each other it’s more difficult to separate stuff you need to hear and stuff that’s not that important to your performance). Adding some reverb to stuff also helps with not feeling cut out. Some artists use audience mics pointed at crowd and mix them in, but i have no experience with this.

Playing with stage monitors vs in ears is wildly different experience. My experience is that my guitar playing and especially singing improved significantly when I went to in ears some 8 years back.

 

[maegnificant]

Hi.

It’s common practice for musician in ear mixes to be in stereo. That way you can pan instruments the way you like. Usually your own instrument is in the middle while others are panned.
Live experience with in ears is claustrophobic enough, mono mix makes it even worse and when every instrument is on top of each other it’s more difficult to separate stuff you need to hear and stuff that’s not that important to your performance). Adding some reverb to stuff also helps with not feeling cut out. Some artists use audience mics pointed at crowd and mix them in, but i have no experience with this.

Playing with stage monitors vs in ears is wildly different experience. My experience is that my guitar playing and especially singing improved significantly when I went to in ears some 8 years back.

Interesting, thank you. I also have been playing with in-ears for years now, but I think I always just had a mono mix.

 

[LFC_SL]

I get that some Chi Fi brands have their social media strategy locked down, sending product to TikTok or YouTube influencers to film adverts reviews but I am still not following the point. If a singer, musician, engineer or crew member are going to buy something as expensive as the Mega5 EST, there is nothing particularly special about chi fi pricing in that context. Look at Future Sonics, Sensaphonics, Fischer Amps, Shure, Westone, InEarz, Alcair, Ultimate Ears Pro and so on (we actually could be here all day). The Shure SE215 is $99. It might not be the bestest IEM ever made, but it is $99. Dream Earz is another brand and they were started by a drummer.