Skylab
Reviewerus Prolificus
LOL! Yes, 8-track sucked big time. I had an 8-track deck in jr high. The cassette deck that replaced it sounded much better, and cassette isn't even really a hi-fi medium.
Yup...poor people...choosing their audio equipment based on what makes them happy...such a tragedy.
Let's notify the Ministry of Truth and file a report.
Regardless of your preference be it the analog or digital domain Vinyl is completely uncompressed. For anyone to believe that CD recorded at 48 kHz and then down sampled to 44.1 kHz is remotely close to what the track originally sounded like probably does not understand signal degeneration.
Almost all instruments produce an analog sound and this signal is then processed in the digital domain thus altering what the original signal sounds like. Sure enough a CD may sound nice and all. The clarity is great, you may be able to hear some of the nuances of the original track, and sure enough you are convinced that what you are hearing must be the original "sound". This simply is not the case.
Most of the artifacts you hear when you listen to vinyl is from sound produced by the various motorized parts inside the recording device. Most of these artifacts can be eliminated with modern technology. If anyone is going to make a fair comparison between CD and vinyl you will need to use a high quality and hi-fi vinyl recording and compare it to a CD recorded from something during the 1970's. This is because almost all music recorded today is horribly compressed even before being recorded at 48 Khz and then down sampled to 44.1 kHz. Most recording during the '70's was totally uncompressed so the only compression you will hear is from the 44.1 kHz sample rate loss on the CD.
I do agree it is quite difficult to find a piece of vinyl, a record player, and an amplifier that will make the sound have such a low signal to noise ratio that it will directly compare to a CD. This is most likely what you are hearing as the "quality" difference between CD and vinyl. All of the little crackles, snaps, glides, and scratches are all artifacts. Digital recording is excellent at producing extremely high signal to noise ratios. This appears as a better noise floor and a crisper sound, be it completely compressed at least twice. First from the recording to 48 kHz and then down to 44.1 kHz. The waveforms on the CD will be far different than the original recording whereas vinyl will show just about the same signal as what was originally recorded.
Excellent post....just one thing...
A vinyl record can be compressed just not as much as a CD allows. In fact, a CD can actually allow for a totally uncompressed signal while an LP can't. As I have mentioned before...it all depends who is mastering what and how they are mastering it.
LOL! Yes, 8-track sucked big time. I had an 8-track deck in jr high. The cassette deck that replaced it sounded much better, and cassette isn't even really a hi-fi medium.
However being happy based on false beliefs is another thing. If you like the colouration, fine, but know that it isn't scientifically better.
Originally Posted by Skylab /img/forum/go_quote.gif
This thread was not started by someone asking if or claiming that vinyl was technically superior to CD. It was started by someone ridiculing someone else for making a subjective claim that he prefers the sound of vinyl.
Not quite. If he had finished his sentence by "in my opinion", it would have been just fine. But he clearly pronounced the very sentence I put in the OP on the most watched french TV channel at 8:20PM when zillions of ppl all over the world watch the news. And he even wrote it on the homepage of his website as if it were a hard fact written in stone(we all know that everything that's written on the web is true).. It's apparently part of his sales pitch for the ipod docks he's selling. JMJ is very much technically savvy, he's using this to push his opinion as if it were a well know undeniable fact.
And I keep seeing ppl raving about 24/96 Vinyl rips...who could possibly care about this? Why not 32/384kHz while they're at it? in order to capture clearer sounding clicks and pops maybe?
I thought it'd give some good food for thoughts for the science forum here, and so far all the "audible" improvements vinyl lovers claim end up being entirely subjective. All the "analog"/"no digital quantization"/yada yada arguments don't hold water when OTOH you get lousy crosstalk/THD/SNR on vinyl.
What's the most evil between digital quantization -that will be oversampled to death and according to many scientists will allow a perfect reconstruction of the original waveform- or the popping feast and stellar THD you get on vynil? Plus the annoyance to clean the LP's, flip them around in the middle of the album, buy new needles etc etc. It's purely nostalgia, and I fully respect that. JMJ means it as it if were technically true, and not a single technicaly argument from Team Black Wax makes sense.
I guess there are ppl who like NOS DAC's, vynil and tube amps because they don't like a clear SQ. They want it to sounds sweeter and less "edgy". I see a pretty clear analogy w/ the kids who prefer MP3 to FLAC.
Originally Posted by Skylab /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I think you're overstating your case (vinyl isn't nearly as bad technically as you have repeatedly tried to make it sound here with your statements like "utterly distorted") [..]
I guess the real question is, why YOU seem to have such an axe to grind with people who like the sound of Vinyl. I like it, but I don't go around bashing people who only want to listen to digital.
"compressed" has a specific technical meaning, compression is a nonlinear process, in audio it is typically applied in the studio to the signal during mastering
the "loudness War" levels of compression are a choice by the industry, applied in the studio - not an inherent property of digital audio
The same transition is now happening with CD and compressed formats.
Hah, I don't! I also like clean sounding vinyl digital rips. I was just wondering if there were some hard verifiable facts that vinyl does some things better than CD...and there doesn't seem to be any.
Leaving aside, for now, the question of whether they are audible or not vinyl does do two specific things better than CD. Frequency extension above 22049, CD just does not go there - we can argue about how well (linearity) supersonics are captured/reproduced and whether it matters but technically LP can get above 22050 and conventional 16/44.1 CD just cannot. The 2nd thing is rise time with CD it is fixed at ~ 22uSec with LP (theoretically) it can be about 8uSec