[helljudgement]

Many in this group claim that OTLs provide some sort of holographic magic that OTCs do not.

In my own experience the grandest and most lifelike sound reproduction always involves a good SET amp. I've not heard boutique OTL amps but did spend quite a bit of time with Feliks and used to own a WA2. They are great sounding amps but for my taste and what I've heard thus far nothing beats a quality SET. Ultimately we choose based off sound and not topology.

 

[AudioDuck]

Independent research would have more credibility.

Yes. Hence “FWIW”; and search engines are helpful for further research. I already made my decision in this area.

 

[jonathan c]

There must be other differences. Many in this group claim that OTLs provide some sort of holographic magic that OTCs do not. I cannot compare, as I went with an OTC, so I could use it with all types of headphones, including planars.

It’s the ‘matching’ of higher output impedance (100-120 ohms) OTLs with higher input impedance (=> 200 ohms) headphones that allows for the ‘magic’: blossoming, directness, fullness of sound…

 

[L0rdGwyn]

Please... share... I'm sure you are more technically informed than most of us. Even if contrarian to other opinions previously shared, I, for one, want to learn from whoever I can and not be limited in exposure to knowledge and opinion. And this isn't a religious thread of dogma, but a place we share knowledge and opinions and take what we want. I'm sure everyone will be polite(!)

Personally, I don't get the fuse thing. But I don't know what I don't know, and I'd like to find out. If you think this isn't something that makes a difference in the signal path (or if you do), I'd love to learn from your perspective....

Okay well, just as a counterpoint to the pro fuse movement...

There is no scientific reason why swapping fuses should make a difference. You are replacing a 20mm piece of wire with a different 20mm piece of wire in series with a transformer primary winding that is many, many times longer than that. Being on the primary side of the mains transformer, the fuse is about as far out of the amplifier signal path as can be possible. The claims by Synergistic Research reek of pseudoscience. This particular section of their FAQ is particularly alarming.

"Q: Are fuses directional?

A: Yes, fuses are directional. Electricity should flow from the left to the right when you view the fuse. If you do not know the direction of flow you should listen to the fuse inserted in both directions. One direction will sound more detailed. This is the correct way."

These fuses are being used for alternating current, which is NOT directional, the flow of electrons reverses direction entirely 60 times per second dependent on the polarity of the AC waveform. This indicates the creator lacks a fundamental understanding of how electricity works, so I am more than a little skeptical of their "Inductive Quantum Coupling" technology. If you don't understand alternating current, you sure as heck aren't going to be able to understand quantum mechanics. Also, the Purple fuse is actually a modified normal fuse made by SIBA, which costs around $1.

Obviously, I am a big tube guy, I am not a measurebator. However, to design and build audio gear you do need to use science, measurements, etc. They do matter! I try to find a healthy balance between following the science and using my ears for audible things that the measurements cannot easily explain. But the fuse thing falls very far outside of my comfort zone as far as following the science goes. I gave it a fair shake and tried it myself, both sighted and blind A-B testing, and I could not discern a difference. I even fell victim to expectation bias at one point, which was later proven to be false by blind testing. Expectation bias can be very powerful, you'd be shocked by what you think you are hearing if you blind test.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/l0rdgwyns-diy-audio.921105/post-17220095

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/l0rdgwyns-diy-audio.921105/page-371#post-17221162

I'm not saying people should be blind testing everything like they do over at ASR, but when it comes to something that really has no scientific explanation and you are paying 200x or more the cost of a normal fuse, I think it is worth trying. I know people don't like to hear that, everyone wants to "trust their ears", but we are talking about an area where there is a high risk of being taken advantage of based on expectation bias and the verbiage used on Synergistic Research's page is highly suspicious.

YMMV of course and people can do as they please. I've been more restrained on this topic in the past, but I think the alternative viewpoint should be given some consideration before everyone starts buying $200+ fuses.

 

[goldwerger]

Okay well, just as a counterpoint to the pro fuse movement...

There is no scientific reason why swapping fuses should make a difference. You are replacing a 20mm piece of wire with a different 20mm piece of wire in series with a transformer primary winding that is many, many times longer than that. Being on the primary side of the mains transformer, the fuse is about as far out of the amplifier signal path as can be possible. The claims my Synergistic Research reek of pseudoscience. This particular section of their FAQ is particularly alarming.

"Q: Are fuses directional?

A: Yes, fuses are directional. Electricity should flow from the left to the right when you view the fuse. If you do not know the direction of flow you should listen to the fuse inserted in both directions. One direction will sound more detailed. This is the correct way."

These fuses are being used for alternating current, which is NOT directional, the flow of electronics reverses direction entirely 60 times per second dependent on the polarity of the AC waveform. This indicates the creator lacks a fundamental understanding of how electricity works, so I am more than a little skeptical of their "Inductive Quantum Coupling" technology. If you don't understand alternating current, you sure as heck aren't going to be able to understand quantum mechanics. Also, the Purple fuse is actually a modified normal fuse made by SIBA, which costs around $1.

Obviously, I am a big tube guy, I am not a measurebator. However, to design and build audio gear you do need to use science, measurements, etc. They do matter! I try to find a healthy balance between following the science and using my ears for audible things that the measurements cannot easily explain. But the fuse thing falls very far outside of my comfort zone as far as following the science goes. I gave it a fair shake and tried it myself, both sighted and blind A-B testing, and I could not discern a difference. I even fell victim to expectation bias at one point, which was later proven to be false by blind testing. Expectation bias can be very powerful, you'd be shocked what you think you are hearing if you blind test.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/l0rdgwyns-diy-audio.921105/post-17220095

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/l0rdgwyns-diy-audio.921105/page-371#post-17221162

I'm not saying people should be blind testing everything like they do over at ASR, but when it comes to something that really has no scientific explanation and you are paying 200x or more the cost of a normal fuse, I think it is worth trying. I know people don't like to hear that, everyone wants to "trust their ears", but we are talking about an area where there is a high risk of being taken advantage of based on expectation bias and the verbiage used on Synergistic Research's page is highly suspicious.

YMMV of course and people can do as they please. I've been more restrained on this topic in the past, but I think the alternative viewpoint should be given some consideration before everyone starts buying $200+ fuses.

Thanks @L0rdGwyn - that’s exactly the kind of insight I was hoping for. To my layman understanding, this makes sense. I am game to try anything, as long as I know why and what I could get from doing that.

 

[George Hincapie]

Okay well, just as a counterpoint to the pro fuse movement...

There is no scientific reason why swapping fuses should make a difference. You are replacing a 20mm piece of wire with a different 20mm piece of wire in series with a transformer primary winding that is many, many times longer than that. Being on the primary side of the mains transformer, the fuse is about as far out of the amplifier signal path as can be possible. The claims my Synergistic Research reek of pseudoscience. This particular section of their FAQ is particularly alarming.

"Q: Are fuses directional?

A: Yes, fuses are directional. Electricity should flow from the left to the right when you view the fuse. If you do not know the direction of flow you should listen to the fuse inserted in both directions. One direction will sound more detailed. This is the correct way."

These fuses are being used for alternating current, which is NOT directional, the flow of electronics reverses direction entirely 60 times per second dependent on the polarity of the AC waveform. This indicates the creator lacks a fundamental understanding of how electricity works, so I am more than a little skeptical of their "Inductive Quantum Coupling" technology. If you don't understand alternating current, you sure as heck aren't going to be able to understand quantum mechanics. Also, the Purple fuse is actually a modified normal fuse made by SIBA, which costs around $1.

Obviously, I am a big tube guy, I am not a measurebator. However, to design and build audio gear you do need to use science, measurements, etc. They do matter! I try to find a healthy balance between following the science and using my ears for audible things that the measurements cannot easily explain. But the fuse thing falls very far outside of my comfort zone as far as following the science goes. I gave it a fair shake and tried it myself, both sighted and blind A-B testing, and I could not discern a difference. I even fell victim to expectation bias at one point, which was later proven to be false by blind testing. Expectation bias can be very powerful, you'd be shocked what you think you are hearing if you blind test.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/l0rdgwyns-diy-audio.921105/post-17220095

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/l0rdgwyns-diy-audio.921105/page-371#post-17221162

I'm not saying people should be blind testing everything like they do over at ASR, but when it comes to something that really has no scientific explanation and you are paying 200x or more the cost of a normal fuse, I think it is worth trying. I know people don't like to hear that, everyone wants to "trust their ears", but we are talking about an area where there is a high risk of being taken advantage of based on expectation bias and the verbiage used on Synergistic Research's page is highly suspicious.

YMMV of course and people can do as they please. I've been more restrained on this topic in the past, but I think the alternative viewpoint should be given some consideration before everyone starts buying $200+ fuses.

100% right. People seem to lose their minds and common sense in audiophile BS.

 

[joshua1122]

Having recently picked up an Atrium during ZMF November as a Christmas present for my wife, I would like to figure out what kind of portable amp to be buying for her. As far as her sound preferences go, I had her do a very quick listening test on my Atrium, between her existing desktop Schiit Magni Heresy and my BHC + SB, and she thinks she prefers the Magni more (BHC sounds "too distant" for her).

She spends much of her day away from her desk, so something she can use on her iPhone and her laptop would be ideal. I suppose I'll have her test my iFi Hip and Qudelix 5K for starters, but I'm just looking for what other people have liked as their portable amp. Thanks for any ideas.

 

[Saberpunch]

Okay well, just as a counterpoint to the pro fuse movement...

There is no scientific reason why swapping fuses should make a difference. You are replacing a 20mm piece of wire with a different 20mm piece of wire in series with a transformer primary winding that is many, many times longer than that. Being on the primary side of the mains transformer, the fuse is about as far out of the amplifier signal path as can be possible. The claims my Synergistic Research reek of pseudoscience. This particular section of their FAQ is particularly alarming.

"Q: Are fuses directional?

A: Yes, fuses are directional. Electricity should flow from the left to the right when you view the fuse. If you do not know the direction of flow you should listen to the fuse inserted in both directions. One direction will sound more detailed. This is the correct way."

These fuses are being used for alternating current, which is NOT directional, the flow of electrons reverses direction entirely 60 times per second dependent on the polarity of the AC waveform. This indicates the creator lacks a fundamental understanding of how electricity works, so I am more than a little skeptical of their "Inductive Quantum Coupling" technology. If you don't understand alternating current, you sure as heck aren't going to be able to understand quantum mechanics. Also, the Purple fuse is actually a modified normal fuse made by SIBA, which costs around $1.

Obviously, I am a big tube guy, I am not a measurebator. However, to design and build audio gear you do need to use science, measurements, etc. They do matter! I try to find a healthy balance between following the science and using my ears for audible things that the measurements cannot easily explain. But the fuse thing falls very far outside of my comfort zone as far as following the science goes. I gave it a fair shake and tried it myself, both sighted and blind A-B testing, and I could not discern a difference. I even fell victim to expectation bias at one point, which was later proven to be false by blind testing. Expectation bias can be very powerful, you'd be shocked what you think you are hearing if you blind test.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/l0rdgwyns-diy-audio.921105/post-17220095

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/l0rdgwyns-diy-audio.921105/page-371#post-17221162

I'm not saying people should be blind testing everything like they do over at ASR, but when it comes to something that really has no scientific explanation and you are paying 200x or more the cost of a normal fuse, I think it is worth trying. I know people don't like to hear that, everyone wants to "trust their ears", but we are talking about an area where there is a high risk of being taken advantage of based on expectation bias and the verbiage used on Synergistic Research's page is highly suspicious.

YMMV of course and people can do as they please. I've been more restrained on this topic in the past, but I think the alternative viewpoint should be given some consideration before everyone starts buying $200+ fuses.

You are a hero we don’t deserve. Thank you for sharing this and happy thanksgiving!

 

[Monsterzero]

There must be other differences. Many in this group claim that OTLs provide some sort of holographic magic that OTCs do not. I cannot compare, as I went with an OTC, so I could use it with all types of headphones, including planars.

Actually L0rdgwyn's Aegis ( TC ) has a slightly better stage in my system than his OTL amp, the Airmid. In fact the Aegis is quite possibly the best amp I've ever heard for both ZMF dynamics and the Caldera as well.
That being said, I'm keeping the Airmid and not getting the Aegis simply because I have no desire to start all over hunting down god tier tubes for the Aegis. I already have almost all of the holy grail tubes in the 6as7g/6080/7802/5998/421a family and i'm about 75% of the way there for the 6j5/6c5 family. It has taken me several years to get here and the thought of starting the process all over again is a higher mountain than im interested in climbing.

 

[busseysound]

Okay well, just as a counterpoint to the pro fuse movement...

There is no scientific reason why swapping fuses should make a difference. You are replacing a 20mm piece of wire with a different 20mm piece of wire in series with a transformer primary winding that is many, many times longer than that. Being on the primary side of the mains transformer, the fuse is about as far out of the amplifier signal path as can be possible. The claims my Synergistic Research reek of pseudoscience. This particular section of their FAQ is particularly alarming.

"Q: Are fuses directional?

A: Yes, fuses are directional. Electricity should flow from the left to the right when you view the fuse. If you do not know the direction of flow you should listen to the fuse inserted in both directions. One direction will sound more detailed. This is the correct way."

These fuses are being used for alternating current, which is NOT directional, the flow of electrons reverses direction entirely 60 times per second dependent on the polarity of the AC waveform. This indicates the creator lacks a fundamental understanding of how electricity works, so I am more than a little skeptical of their "Inductive Quantum Coupling" technology. If you don't understand alternating current, you sure as heck aren't going to be able to understand quantum mechanics. Also, the Purple fuse is actually a modified normal fuse made by SIBA, which costs around $1.

Obviously, I am a big tube guy, I am not a measurebator. However, to design and build audio gear you do need to use science, measurements, etc. They do matter! I try to find a healthy balance between following the science and using my ears for audible things that the measurements cannot easily explain. But the fuse thing falls very far outside of my comfort zone as far as following the science goes. I gave it a fair shake and tried it myself, both sighted and blind A-B testing, and I could not discern a difference. I even fell victim to expectation bias at one point, which was later proven to be false by blind testing. Expectation bias can be very powerful, you'd be shocked what you think you are hearing if you blind test.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/l0rdgwyns-diy-audio.921105/post-17220095

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/l0rdgwyns-diy-audio.921105/page-371#post-17221162

I'm not saying people should be blind testing everything like they do over at ASR, but when it comes to something that really has no scientific explanation and you are paying 200x or more the cost of a normal fuse, I think it is worth trying. I know people don't like to hear that, everyone wants to "trust their ears", but we are talking about an area where there is a high risk of being taken advantage of based on expectation bias and the verbiage used on Synergistic Research's page is highly suspicious.

YMMV of course and people can do as they please. I've been more restrained on this topic in the past, but I think the alternative viewpoint should be given some consideration before everyone starts buying $200+ fuses.

I'm a huge skeptic in the audio world (especially with high end studio equipment) and I find that about 50% of what I've tried in the audio world made no difference (or made things worse) whether there was scientific precedence or not. I also believe that unless the gear you use is of a certain quality then you won't notice a difference (as is true if even a single piece of gear in the chain is holding everything else back).

The real test for me was using them in all 3 of the devices in my chain for several days, then removing them from all 3 (required 5 fuses in all). It was as if I had changed interconnects. Honestly, if the difference was minimal I wouldn't have kept them. It was unfortunate because of the cost. I was also dumbfounded wondering what they were doing in that little fuse that made such a difference.

I also think sometimes it comes down to the capability and especially training of one's ears. I know mine have changed over the years from playing in different symphonic settings and being an audio producer. I'll go back and listen to things I thought were good 10 years prior and be amazed at what I was tolerant of. Of course if you don't hear a difference, then it's never worth it.

The money back guarantee was the reason I pulled the trigger (and recommendations from people I trust on here). As always I think people are experts in their field, but whether they have actually been involved with the engineering and manufacturing of a particular product in question can be an entirely different story. Those engineers may have way more knowledge than I (or other scientists) in regards to the equipment or technology they're producing. I don't think we would have near as many breakthroughs in audio equipment over the years if it weren't for brilliant engineers with great ears that looked beyond the science at the time of their invention. I completely understand those that want to avoid the snake oil though - there's a tremendous amount of it out there. My opinion is just let your ears decide. Like L0rdGwyn said, YMMV.

 

[paradoxper]

B

Okay well, just as a counterpoint to the pro fuse movement...

There is no scientific reason why swapping fuses should make a difference. You are replacing a 20mm piece of wire with a different 20mm piece of wire in series with a transformer primary winding that is many, many times longer than that. Being on the primary side of the mains transformer, the fuse is about as far out of the amplifier signal path as can be possible. The claims my Synergistic Research reek of pseudoscience. This particular section of their FAQ is particularly alarming.

"Q: Are fuses directional?

A: Yes, fuses are directional. Electricity should flow from the left to the right when you view the fuse. If you do not know the direction of flow you should listen to the fuse inserted in both directions. One direction will sound more detailed. This is the correct way."

These fuses are being used for alternating current, which is NOT directional, the flow of electrons reverses direction entirely 60 times per second dependent on the polarity of the AC waveform. This indicates the creator lacks a fundamental understanding of how electricity works, so I am more than a little skeptical of their "Inductive Quantum Coupling" technology. If you don't understand alternating current, you sure as heck aren't going to be able to understand quantum mechanics. Also, the Purple fuse is actually a modified normal fuse made by SIBA, which costs around $1.

Obviously, I am a big tube guy, I am not a measurebator. However, to design and build audio gear you do need to use science, measurements, etc. They do matter! I try to find a healthy balance between following the science and using my ears for audible things that the measurements cannot easily explain. But the fuse thing falls very far outside of my comfort zone as far as following the science goes. I gave it a fair shake and tried it myself, both sighted and blind A-B testing, and I could not discern a difference. I even fell victim to expectation bias at one point, which was later proven to be false by blind testing. Expectation bias can be very powerful, you'd be shocked what you think you are hearing if you blind test.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/l0rdgwyns-diy-audio.921105/post-17220095

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/l0rdgwyns-diy-audio.921105/page-371#post-17221162

I'm not saying people should be blind testing everything like they do over at ASR, but when it comes to something that really has no scientific explanation and you are paying 200x or more the cost of a normal fuse, I think it is worth trying. I know people don't like to hear that, everyone wants to "trust their ears", but we are talking about an area where there is a high risk of being taken advantage of based on expectation bias and the verbiage used on Synergistic Research's page is highly suspicious.

YMMV of course and people can do as they please. I've been more restrained on this topic in the past, but I think the alternative viewpoint should be given some consideration before everyone starts buying $200+ fuses.

Bah. So begins the innumerous subjective order to obfuscate your science.

 

[AudioDuck]

My opinion is just let your ears decide. Like L0rdGwyn said, YMMV.

And, if I may suggest this, as @L0rdGwyn and @busseysound provided articulate, clear points of view for both sides of the “do fuses matter” discussion, perhaps we can return to our usual programming…

 

[goldwerger]

I'm a huge skeptic in the audio world (especially with high end studio equipment) and I find that about 50% of what I've tried in the audio world made no difference (or made things worse) whether there was scientific precedence or not. I also believe that unless the gear you use is of a certain quality then you won't notice a difference (as is true if even a single piece of gear in the chain is holding everything else back).

The real test for me was using them in all 3 of the devices in my chain for several days, then removing them from all 3 (required 5 fuses in all). It was as if I had changed interconnects. Honestly, if the difference was minimal I wouldn't have kept them. It was unfortunate because of the cost. I was also dumbfounded wondering what they were doing in that little fuse that made such a difference.

I also think sometimes it comes down to the capability and especially training of one's ears. I know mine have changed over the years from playing in different symphonic settings and being an audio producer. I'll go back and listen to things I thought were good 10 years prior and be amazed at what I was tolerant of. Of course if you don't hear a difference, then it's never worth it.

The money back guarantee was the reason I pulled the trigger (and recommendations from people I trust on here). As always I think people are experts in their field, but whether they have actually been involved with the engineering and manufacturing of a particular product in question can be an entirely different story. Those engineers may have way more knowledge than I (or other scientists) in regards to the equipment or technology they're producing. I don't think we would have near as many breakthroughs in audio equipment over the years if it weren't for brilliant engineers with great ears that looked beyond the science at the time of their invention. I completely understand those that want to avoid the snake oil though - there's a tremendous amount of it out there. My opinion is just let your ears decide. Like L0rdGwyn said, YMMV.

Thanks. Love getting these different perspectives here! The ultimate purpose of sharing experiences in this thread..

 

[Monsterzero]

I've been doing a lot of reading and research the last couple of weeks on solid state amps to add to my collection, primarily for ZMF headphones, including the Caldera, but also for some of my other headphones that currently just collect dust.

My priorites are staging, dynamics, musicality and low noise floor. I do not like sterile sounding amps or limp sounding amps that prioritize accuracy above all else.

So far I've reag about:

Zahl HM1- too much $, scarce.
Niimbus US5- too much $, might be too sterile sounding (?)
Bakoon 13R- too much $, seems to be more for Susvara type headphones than high impedance dynamic drivers
Enleum 23R- see above
Luxman P 750u- availability, might be not musical enough (?), seems to be less powerful than others I've read about
Violectric V550- top contender
Wells Milo- not sure the Wells sound is for me, noise floor issues (?), only one 1/4" jack
Flux Volot- uncertain company viability
AGD HE9- too boring (?)

Does anyone have any experience with these amps that they can share some opinions on, or perhaps something I'm sleeping on that meets my criteria?

EDIT: multiple 1/4" jacks is also a big bonus.

 

[goldwerger]

Wells Milo- not sure the Wells sound is for me, noise floor issues (?)

I've tried the more expensive cousin, the Wells Headtrip, and it was (sorry to use a pun) a real headtrip. No noise floor issues on that one, and extremely enjoyable. I tried it paired with my SP2000 as a source (via XLRs), as well as with Wells own (insanely expensive) tube preamp. It responded well to good sources, and synergized well with tubes upstream (you run a Lampizator tube DAC right?)

I think the Milo has different "levels" and perhaps noise floor is a function of the selection of components. But I'm just guessing.

@Zachik - pulling you into our thread hopes ok.. I know you've been looking into the Milo... thoughts of pairing it with ZMFs?