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Does the 404 sound much different from the 404LE? The few comparisons I have read didn't think so.
Originally Posted by spritzer /img/forum/go_quote.gif The LE is more like the SR-SC1 i.e. it doesn't suck like the standard 404. |
Originally Posted by edstrelow /img/forum/go_quote.gif Does the 404 sound much different from the 404LE? The few comparisons I have read didn't think so. |
Originally Posted by spritzer /img/forum/go_quote.gif The LE is more like the SR-SC1 i.e. it doesn't suck like the standard 404. |
Originally Posted by Dinan /img/forum/go_quote.gif There really is no question that the 404LE is a considerable jump from the 404 and very different despite only minor differences (cable, diaphragm treatment, and color). Many that are not fans of the 404 (myself included), own and love the 404LE. |
Originally Posted by TimJo /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'm new to Stax, and the LE's are the first I've owned, so take my opinion with that in mind. My guess is the major difference is the ear pads being leather, which must effect the frequency spectrum as perceived the listener and helps create the amazing strength and clarity in the bass. The other factor probably is the cable they used. I'm not a big cable guy, but it has to make a difference. I just got a pair of the Beyer T1's and the cable they used makes a big difference in the sound I'm sure. |
Originally Posted by spritzer /img/forum/go_quote.gif If anybody that compares a normal 404 to the LE and hears no difference the something is very wrong with their ears. The difference is clearly in the diaphragm and not the cable, earpads etc. I've done extensive testing on the SR-404 and even with extreme damping their basic character was still there. Simply removing the foam on the SR-404 certainly didn't do the trick, far from it. I needed to go to ortho levels of damping to tame the midrange peak after completely rebuilding the phones. There is a thread about this process somewhere else... This character of the 404 is beneficial in the SR-Sigma chassis but not so much in the Lambda frame. I'm not so sure though that we are dealing with the same drivers in the 4070, same basic structure but the diaphragm could be radically different. The only way to really know would be to get replacement drivers and see how they are marked. As for the SR-SC1, it's been a while since I had my last set but it is like a grown up version of the SR-Lambda, more extension and presence but similar tonality. |
Originally Posted by kh6idf /img/forum/go_quote.gif I just replaced the pads on my SR-202 this morning with the leather pads from the 404 Limted Edition. Stax part number is EP234-LIMITED. It took about 2 hours because the adhesive tape is VERY sticky and hard to remove. I managed to get the old pads off with minimal damage but I think it did stretch out the protective foam covering the inside of the driver a bit. The new pads have a separate protective element of some sort of woven cloth that drops in the oval cutout and seems to be a much better system. After cleaning all the old tape off (using 91% alcohol and a microfiber cloth), the new double sided adhesive was applied and the leather pads stuck down. It seems like the leather pad can be removed with a little less effort than the vinyl, but it is still stuck down very well. Here's some pictures, the pads are a bit thinner and the drivers may be a little closer to the ears but if the ear touches the inner protective element I can hardly feel it and it is not irritating at all. I haven't used them for any length of time but the 5 minutes or so I tried them there was no sign of ears sweating. I had most of my rig disassembled form yesterday's Houston head-fi meet (will post pics later this afternoon or this evening) so I just listened to the CD player output into the SRM-252 without using my usual external DAC. Also the SRM-252 did not have a chance to warm up and I know this improves the sound a little once it does. Still, the sound is mostly unchanged, perhaps a very small decrease in the spaciousness or soundstage, but this may be due to not using the external DAC. But the overall balance did not seem to change. I will listen more extensively tonight once I reassemble my gear and let everything warm up. http://home.comcast.net/~kh6idf/Stax...0pads%2001.jpg http://home.comcast.net/~kh6idf/Stax...0pads%2002.jpg http://home.comcast.net/~kh6idf/Stax...0pads%2005.jpg |
Originally Posted by kh6idf /img/forum/go_quote.gif OK, here's my impression of the sound with the 404LE pads on my SR-202. I've listened for an hour or so with the SRM-252 amp warmed up, and everything restored to the original configuration (using external DAC, etc) I had with the "stock" SR-202 before. The sound has changed, the high frequencies are a little more rolled off now. But the overall balance seems to be improved, with the midrange and bass warming up slightly. It now has a well-balanced sound. My first impression with the stock sr-202 was "where's the bass?" and I thought they were slightly thin or bright sounding, but now I don't think I would have that impression if I had heard these for the first time. The high frequency rolloff accounts for the slight loss in detail / air / soundstage I reported earlier. Since I have a DEQ2496 in the loop, I may try to bring the HF extension back to it's original level with some careful equalization. But the comfort factor has definitely improved. I can wear these for an hour or more now with no need to take them off. No ear sweating at all. This is really a good thing. I believe the HF rolloff may be caused by a combination of the new dust protection material (the oval-shaped woven cloth used instead of the more transparent original foam) and the leather pads absorbing / dampening the highest frequencies compared to the more reflective vinyl. It's possible the distance to the ears or the angle has changed but I don't feel this has as much influence as the filter material or the composition of the pads. Upon reflection, what these remind me of now is the frequency balance I heard with the SR-007 (heard them for the first time this weekend at the Houston meet). They also seemed to have a slight HF rolloff and a nice even balance across the frequency range. They also use the same filter and pad material. So I think the comfort improvement is worth switching to the new pads, but a little of the magic (soundstage / air / HF extension) is gone. I will see if I can bring it back with EQ but what I have right now is a nice warm, even balance, reminds me of the sound of my Magneplanar speakers. |
Originally Posted by HeadphoneAddict /img/forum/go_quote.gif That's about the sound you get from the SR404LE. Of course there are likely some other differences between a 202 and 404 with the LE pads, such as in the detail or something else, once you factor in the differences between the 404 and 202 drivers and cable. I have read that the 404 are brighter than the 202, and that is why those drivers work so well in the old vintage Sigma driver housing - so I imagine the 404 with the LE pads might not be as rolled off as the 202 with them. But I would bet that these pads do make up a lot of or most of the difference between the regular 404 that Spritzer says have the upper midrange etch and the 404LE that don't have as much or any of that. |
Originally Posted by kh6idf /img/forum/go_quote.gif My ears/brain are already adjusting to the new sound of the SR-202 with the 404LE pads. It doesn't sound rolled off anymore, just really well balanced and detailed. Plenty of bass now and a beautiful midrange. I am not going to use any EQ, my brain is rapidly acclimating and it now sounds just right. |
Originally Posted by Don Quichotte /img/forum/go_quote.gif To be honest your impressions reflect very well my own as I have recently replaced my 303's old pads (with foam) with the new kind (with oval-shaped woven cloth) - normal pads, not LE. My system was almost perfectly balanced before, maybe just a bit rolled off in the highs (!). I definitely concur that the new pads loose some of the magic of the old ones, but it's not necessarily related to the highs - more to the mids IMO - and it is not entirely because of the cloth. Actually, it's the pads themselves that "loose the magic", the cloth only darkens the sound, adding bass and rolling off treble as well as, I think (not sure about this), reducing a bit the soundstage width and sense of air and space, as you have already suspected. I know this because I have cut the foam off the old pads (it was disintegrating because of too much usage and probably because of the friction with the new silvery metallic mesh that replaced the old black one made of brass two years ago) and I have installed the woven cloth alternatively on the new pads as well as on the old ones. I have switched between the two many times, without sticking the pads to the baffle with the double sided adhesive yet. The woven cloth fits pretty well on the old pads in the hole left by the foam, but its edge (the oval shaped artificial leather ring) must remain in close contact with the pad - if it separates too much and doesn't seal the inner side of the pad anymore the sound changes to a shockingly degree, I cannot explain why, and becomes much brighter, livelier, with highs to die for, better air, soundstage and perhaps even better dynamics; however, unfortunately it also looses much too much bass quantitatively as well as bass impact and becomes unbalanced and somewhat tiring. Almost the same sound (perhaps the change is even slightly greater) one can get by installing the wove cloth not in contact with the pad but by simply placing in the oval hole of the baffle, in contact with the metallic mesh I was mentioning before. Back to the comparison between the actual pads. I was refraining from writing about this because I find it hard to describe and hard to explain. The new pads add bass themselves and make the midrange more subdued. The old pads sound more lively. But the most interesting fact is that, apparently unrelated to the frequency response, the old pads allows the listener to hear more easily all the sound and the relationships between them, thus gaining better access to the whole musical gestalt. It's not that they are more detailed, the new pads might even sound a tiny little bit more precise and relaxed (I'm not sure), but it's simply as I said above and I cannot describe or explain it better. It's much easier for me to hear the music with the old pads, pure joy with no effort on my side, while the new ones are boring by comparison. The difference might not be very obvious from the first moment, but something was missing and I couldn't put the finger on it. Then, returning to the old pads was such a relief! I was listening to music again. I couldn't explain and thus I found it hard to believe, so I have tried repeatedly to give the new pads a chance during the past few weeks, but every time the attempt ended the same way. Now I only use the old pads with the new woven cloth. Please bear in mind that my modest but nice sounding system is better suited to a livelier and brighter sounding Stax phone because it is on the warm, dark and colorful side. And colored too, I agree, but I repeat myself, it sounds pretty good (and really great for the money). In a more neutral system the new pads might offer better tonal balance, but I'm sure the stuff about musicality or sonic gestalt I wrote above would still hold true. |
Originally Posted by kh6idf /img/forum/go_quote.gif Don Quichotte, Are your new 303 pads made of 'artificial leather' like the old ones? I assume only the 404LE pads are real leather which is why I ordered them instead of the new 202 pads. If they are artificial leather, I would think they wouldn't change the sound much unless they were a different thickness or shape. The biggest difference would be in the dust protection material. I would have liked to get a full thickness 202 pad made of real leather, these 404LE pads are thinner and place the ears closer to the drivers. In fact the outer edges of my ears touch the dust protection cloth now, but it is not irritating as the cloth is soft and not scratchy. |
Originally Posted by Don Quichotte /img/forum/go_quote.gif The new pads are made of artificial leather, just like the old ones, but they are noticeably thinner, I suppose they have the same thickness as your 404LE pads. The cloth changes the tonality compared to the foam of the old pads, but the character of the sound remains the same - pretty much as if you would alter a bit the position of the bass and treble knobs of an integrated amplifier. The new pads themselves, on the other hand, result in a less linear tonal modification which is as big or almost as big as the change induced by the cloth; being less linear and perhaps also for other reasons which escape me, the tonal change induced by the new pads results in a sound that seems a bit different in character - comparatively more shut in mids, maybe less snappy in the mids, less spacious, cohesive or expressive, I don't know, I'm not so sure now of a detailed comparison done from the memory. The main idea is, as I wrote in my previous post, less music - and of this I am sure, I couldn't forget the difference. Of course, all IMHO, in my system, etc. |
Originally Posted by edstrelow /img/forum/go_quote.gif Interesting speculation but I see the same red-framed driver in the LE as in the regular 404. Nor is there any mention of such a change although I see a disclaimer at the bottom of the pdf page about specifications may be changed without notice. |
Originally Posted by edstrelow /img/forum/go_quote.gif I guess it must be difficult to maintain quality control on the drivers and I would assume there is some variation in all stats based on tension problems with the diaphragm. |
Originally Posted by edstrelow /img/forum/go_quote.gif I am surprised that you discount the effect of the cable and pads. |